earth ships

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>greatone2002 said
They also have new designs rabidly going off the assebly line, that shows that their 400 year advantange is showing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good point, another thing that people may not know or have forgotten from the Centauri trilogy.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>How fast did the Centauri rebuild after being bombed and pummeled by the Alliance during the first two books. It was amazing the speed and efficiency they were working with. Granted they were growing in the wrong direction (under Durla), but you have admit that the technology coupled with the determination of the Centauri all under a positive influence is a very powerful force to reckon with. Makes you wonder what would have happened had Emperor Turhan been a bit stronger.</font></td></tr></table>

I also seem to remember Sheridan with a quote in Season 2, I think the episode was "And Now for a Word":

"And anyone who thinks we can hold our one against the Minbari, the Centauri, and god forbid the Vorlons; is just plain kidding themselves"

Apparently Sheridan's great military mind doesn't see Earth winning a war against the Centauri.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Apparently Sheridan's great military mind doesn't see Earth winning a war against the Centauri.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, that was the Centauri, The Minbari AND the Vorlon, all at once.

The Vorlon: no one can even sneak a spy probe past their defenses. The only time anyone has even Seen Vorlon ships (except for Kosh's transport) in recent memory was when they came for Sinclair in "The Gathering". BUT, given the nature of the universe and the races meeting on B5, if it WERE possible to attack the Vorlons and win, Someone would be bragging about having Done it.

The Minbari: he knows from bitter experience Earth can't beat them.


The Centauri, Maybe we can beat them. Sheridan knows that, when asked for help during the E/M war, the Centauri (Londo) flatlty Refused, citing the lack of a Death Wish as the reason for refusing. So, he has the Centarui's own word that they are Much Less capable than the Minbari.




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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>bakana said
Uh, that was the Centauri, The Minbari AND the Vorlon, all at once. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was not the impression I got, I thought he was talking about them separately. I also don't think ANYONE would be stupid enough to argue that we can beat all of them at the same time. What was it that Londo said.

"Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts, only the heir to the throne of the kingdom of idiots fights a war on twelve."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The Centauri, Maybe we can beat them. Sheridan knows that, when asked for help during the E/M war, the Centauri (Londo) flatlty Refused, citing the lack of a Death Wish as the reason for refusing. So, he has the Centarui's own word that they are Much Less capable than the Minbari. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never argued that the Centauri were more capable than the Minbari, I only argue that the Centauri are more capable than Earth. And the representative from Earth coming to the Centauri and asking for their help tells me he thinks so, too.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Many good points, the bottom line is the Centauri Republic is not to be underestimated. The Centauri enjoy, higher techology, more numbers, and a better economy then both Earth and the Narn. The Minbari, no, the Minbari are just that tough, i remind you they're like the sole servivors of the last Great War. Also remember how big the Centauri used to be, a quarter of the galaxy! The Minbari wouldn't even mess with the Centauri during this period as they had limitless recources, though the Centauri wouldn't mess with the Minbari, because they saw first hand from the Garmok (spelling?) war and the once powerfull Stibe fall before the Minbari. But the point is though the Centauri do not have the size of territory the once had, they have still have very much of the fleet they used to have, as the Narn found out in the War of Retribution, when the Centauri finally activated a good number of these stockpiled ships.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Also remember from the Centouri triliogy, that though Londo said that only a fool would take on both the Minbari and Earth fleet,(which once again refers to a war on two fronts), the Centouri did have they're military preparing to take on the entire ISA, that alone should show you the techology and the economy power of the Might Centauri Republic. </font></td></tr></table>



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you cannot make history, only hope to survive it.

 

[AngelSummers]

People, bear in mind that 10 years ago, Earth was left with little more than 200 ships [capital I think] before the Minbari surrendered. They had 2 years to fight the Minbari before being downed to little more than 20000 ships in the Battle of the Line.

Now, I know there has to be more ships that didn't make it to the Battle of the Line, but you have to understand that where once you had thousands of ships protecting your space, you now only have a small fraction left thanks to the Minbari.

Sheridan's comment about EA unable to stand up to the Centauri is probably based on his knowledge on current production, numbers, etc etc. Technologically speaking, he knows Earth has a chance of beating the Centauri, if only marginally smaller. Minbari and Vorlons, of course nobody can defeat them. The fact he wasn't confident about EA's defenses is based on the fact that 10 years ago they were down to almost nothing. And more than a dozen colonies to protect and hold on to.

My guess he was thinking of numbers. Don't tell me the rest of the galaxy stopped their warship production during the Earth Minbari War. The only reason EarthForce is still highly respected is that technologically they're still sound and only a few steps behind the Centauri, and the most important feature of all, human ingenuity. Humans are fearless and powerful when united. This they all learned from the War as the Humans fought for every inch of space right down to the last man.

The Minbari might have been victorious. But they paid a hell of a price. OK, maybe not too much casualties. But enough deaths that even all 3 castes became tired of the war. But pride drove them on and that's why they invaded the Solar System. Remember Delenn's face and even the other Warrior Caste Copelann. They were both tired.

But as Delenn said... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The war has taken a life of its own. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EA fought the Minbari bravely and valiantly. That, if nothing else made the rest of the galaxy look up at the Humans despite they're reduced power.

Not to mention the experience and tech tit bits from the war.

Its a shame we Humans can probably unite only under great danger. In peacetime, we're so busy squabling with each other.

Oh, and about the Omega Class Destroyer's capabilities, well, the only thing I have to complain is firing arcs. Mainly, extremely narrow for the 2 forward firing batteries. Not very good for a warship, especially one wiht poor maneuverability.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by danny_in_space:
I think the Earthforce ships are the second best types, next to the Whitestars. I really like the Hyperion class vessels.

I think that Earthforce design may have been run Americans.

If you look at it, we dont have as much grace with architecture as the rest of the world. And "aestetically pleasing" isnt one of out major things either.

American currency vs. Euros
--the Euros more pleasing

American warships vs. British trimarian vessel
--trimarian looks better

the only thing we may have that looks better than the rest of the worlds are planes. Nothing on Earth can match the sleekness of an F-22 or a B2

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The russian fighters (sukhoy(?) 27 in particular, I think) are much prettier. Personally, my favourite american fighter is the f-15 eagle. as beautifull as efficient.



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never surrender, never give up
God, I need a better tag line

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Earth is a few steps behind the Centauri when is comes to both techology and economy, I dont think that is under debate their. The Centauri War Maching though would take the Earth Alliance out, and Sheridon knew this, Th Centauri were fighter several wars just as bigger if not bigger then earth has in like 4 times as long, this alone shows you that the Centauir are to be reckoned with. In My opinion the Earth Alliance and the Narn Regime are probely like a fair fight for the Centauri, throw in the Centauri and I think they have a chance or beating the Minbari. Also remember there are also other factors in war, one of the most important and often over looked is Leader capabilites, and the Centauri have more wars to teach there Admirals from, Meaning chances are they have the best admirals.

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you cannot make history, only hope to survive it.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Just straying back to an earlier point - I only read slllloooooowwwllllllllyyyyy you understand

- I would certainly like to see more of the Warlock Class.

I know we are moving into Crusade territory here, but I seem to recall that we saw a Warlock class in Each Night I Dream of Home, transporting the Senator and Guinea Pig to meet Excalibur.

What I can't remember is - whether we saw them on-screen at any other time. Anyone know for sure?

Spoiler from one of JMS' B5 short stories

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>We also know that the Warlock Class Destroyer incorporated shadowtech in its design.

I think this leads us to conclude that these ships had a big role to play in the "hybrid ship" storyline that Crusade was going to address before being so rudely interrupted.</font></td></tr></table>

Just a thought.

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DaveC
"Somebody gulped. You were supposed to sip not gulp!"

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> the Centouri did have their military preparing to take on the entire ISA, that alone should show you the techology and the economy power of the Mighty Centauri Republic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, that was under Drakh Control.
The Drakh weren't planning on Winning that war.
They were planning on Destroying Everyone, Including the Centauri.
It was their revenge:
On Humans for leading the alliance that caused the Shadows to leave.
On the Centauri because of the Shadows that Londo Killed.
On the Alliance in general for joining the Humans.

After they got it started, the Drakh would have waited on the sidelines until the various races had bombed each other into bankruptcy, then they'd have come forward with the only intact fleet around and taken over.

Oh, I think you're also letting a lot of Fanfic into your arguments.
I saw several arguments based on stuff that was never in any of the TV Episodes, movies or books.
Those are out three sources of Canon.
Besides JMS himself, that is.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

the three trilogies are totally true to the plot line of Babylon-5, and that is the only reason i read them in the first place. They were approved by JMS as 100% accurate as well. I would never waste my time with possible false data, for the record.

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you cannot make history, only hope to survive it.

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> three trilogies are totally true to the plot line of Babylon-5, and that is the only reason i read them in the first place. They were approved by JMS as 100% accurate as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not quite.
JMS said they were Mostly Canon and that we could accept them as such unless He specifically contradicted them in something else He wrote.

The only book he ever pronounced 100% was "To Dream in the City of Sorrows".
That one was written by his Wife and she was relentless in making him answer ALL her questions.
No other writer has that unique advantage.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[AngelSummers]

Ohh yeah, To dream in the City of Sorrows is my fabourtite book out of all the B5 books. Fantasitcally written and has the most reliable source of information. [her husband basically

]

Out of Darkness is also a good at tying all the loose ends of B5.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

wrong, the trilogies are completly canon. And of couse if JMS countered something it would be true, thats also true in the B5 series as well, which is why it wouldn't happen. The books were orinally written to further the B5 story for the fans. The only reason he stated that book to be 100% cannon and not the other was reference to the other stories that came out, not including the trilogies. Those stories like clark law and such was written,published, and then had JMS state how legitamate (spelling) they were, the trilogy books had to be completly apporved by JMS is before they came out. I think this was even stated inside some of the books themselves, but not sure on that.

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you cannot make history, only hope to survive it.

 

[admiraldave]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AngelSummers:
Oh, and about the Omega Class Destroyer's capabilities, well, the only thing I have to complain is firing arcs. Mainly, extremely narrow for the 2 forward firing batteries. Not very good for a warship, especially one wiht poor maneuverability.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My main issue with the Omega is that it's designed to run away. 8 interceptors and 4 main batteries are mounted aft of the rotating section, twice that of the forward weapons.

Admiral Dave

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Hey (hey) hey somewhere
You threw your fear in the sea of no cares ...

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I never thought of it like that, being so heavily armored, they probably have little reason to run (except maybe a Minbari Cruiser

) Btw, nice name Admiral Dave

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>greatone2002 said
The Minbari wouldn't even mess with the Centauri during this period as they had limitless recources, though the Centauri wouldn't mess with the Minbari, because they saw first hand from the Garmok (spelling?) war and the once powerfull Stibe fall before the Minbari. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did you get this information I've never heard of the Garmok and although I know who the Streib are, I never knew they were in a war with the Minbari. I think this is what Bakana means by you using to much Fanfic. Most of my points come directly from the Centauri Trilogy and the Show itself. I can't say much about what JMS has said because I've never been on his usenets.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>angelsummers said
Sheridan's comment about EA unable to stand up to the Centauri is probably based on his knowledge on current production, numbers, etc etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are probably right only it doesn't change the fact that Earth hasn't a chance of beating the Centauri. I also think that the besides just the ingenuity and pride of Humans, Delenn's observation that we build communities is more important. The Centauri can never maintain a peaceful empire without it eventually falling under its own dead weight and triviality. The great emperors and empires never let the people know or make it obvious who was in charge, historically speaking(Caesar, Napolean, Xerxes). Humans have this ability, I think, I also think the Shadows and Vorlons have this ability (Lennier should back me up on this one) and that is why they became so powerful. The Centauri do not.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>bakana said
Uh, that was under Drakh Control.
The Drakh weren't planning on Winning that war.
They were planning on Destroying Everyone, Including the Centauri.
It was their revenge:
On Humans for leading the alliance that caused the Shadows to leave.
On the Centauri because of the Shadows that Londo Killed.
On the Alliance in general for joining the Humans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that they were growing in the wrong direction, under Durla and the Drakh, but they were still growing tremendously fast. In fact, until I read the Centauri trilogy, I had no idea of just how powerful they really are. A rich history will do more for a civilization that anyone would think. I also suggest, just for fun, see if you can find the Sierra Encyclopedia software. Its probably not canon, but it gives you good insight into the comparison of just how powerful some of these races (even the minor ones) are. How many people know that none of the major races really want to mess with the Yuli (leader of the Mutado in TKO was part of this race). I think its fun to read about.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I only read B5 material which is stamped, authenticated, 100% canon, and approved by JMS 100%, i wouldn't waste my time otherwise. A very full and rich history of the B5 races are in books published by agents of gaming. Now some of there information is wrong, that is why I only pay attension to the information which JMS has stated was 100% true, and he said that the histories in these books were actually written by himself, therefore they are true, i suggest you read it, it's very interested, also some of this information is also stated in the pilot movie, "The Gathering". The main stuff to stay away from is information on the Leage, though the histories are correct, the techology is not 100% true. If you have more question on where you can get 100% true canon information on B5, ask, i know much more, then you may think.

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you cannot make history, only hope to survive it.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i remember reading or hearing that when the Centari had all that power and were the "lion of the galaxy" not even the Minbari would mess with them. The Centari had to have had a HUGE fleet to run thier empire, probably much much larger than the more advanced Minbari fleet. Sometimes size matters

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

Actually Daave, its pretty clear that it was the Centauri who DID NOT want to mess with the Minbari. Londo made that perfectly clear in the movie ItB.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

oh, i thought he meant at the time of B5, not when his people controlled like 1/4 of the galaxy or whatever

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