EpDis: A Distant Star

[Chilli]

What makes you think it didn't have a jump engine?

They got lost in hyperspace due to losing the beacon to jump points, and thus not knowing where they are.

If they had a jump engine, couldn't they just jump to normal space, figure out their position due to the star field, and jump back into hyperspace with knowledge of where they were? Unless, of course, the jump engine was down - which was not mentioned, though.

 

[KoshFan]

Chilli, there were sparks and smoke on the bridge! Don't you know that means the ship's been catastrophically damaged? How else would they show damage to a ship, except by sparks and smoke?

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Two big beefs with this one.

*) The Cortez. Okay. They named a ship after Hernándo Cortez. What are its sister ships, the Hitler and the Genghis Khan?

I'm with you on that one. Problem is, most of the "explorers" in those times were pretty much as bad. They could have named the ship the Humbolt, but few would know who that was.

 

[vacantlook]

They had to have a jump engine because the whole mission of that type of ship was to go where no jumpgates were and build them.

 

[Chilli]

I'm with you on that one. Problem is, most of the "explorers" in those times were pretty much as bad. They could have named the ship the Humbolt, but few would know who that was.

True, I guess. However, as bad as some other "explorers" were at the time, there aren't *that* many that explored foreign civilisations by completely destroying them. I would have been quite happy with a Marco Polo, for example. But I guess it just doesn't sound nearly as impressive.

They had to have a jump engine because the whole mission of that type of ship was to go where no jumpgates were and build them.

That would make sense, and I would assume that. However, they not once manage that the jump engine is down. Noone asks if it can be repaired, or anything of the sort. Which just is .. weird.

 

[Chilli]

I checked the Lurker's guide on this matter to see what JMS had to say about the naming of the Cortez ..

If Cortez had NOT landed in northern Mexico, do you think it would have remained undiscovered until now?

Fact #1: somebody was bound to discover the Americas.


Fact #2: any sufficiently advanced civilization or culture will inevitably attempt to exploit any civilization or culture not sufficiently advanced to fight back on a level playing field.


Blaming explorers for exploring has always seemed to me really kind of silly; do people *really* think that if Columbus hadn't landed here, it'd be 1994 and we still wouldn't know the world was round and that this continent was here? It doesn't matter who discovered it, the same result would've come. Somebody had to discover it sooner or later.

I hope his knowledge on the actions Cortez was *personally* responsible for is limited. Otherwise, for once in my life, I really don't get where JMS is coming from. By that logic, I can't hate Hitler either, because .. sooner or later, some German would have wanted to "explore" Poland, France and Russia.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

He does seem kind of fatalistic, about the native American cultures being "exploited" by "explorers." Of course he is right. If it had not been Columbus and Cortez and Pizarro, it would have been three other guys, probably equally brutal. But, even if it was inevitable, I still don't think it was excusable.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

The whole thing about losing the beacon has no bearing on whether a ship has a jump engine or not it is the basis of navigating in hyperspace ... if you are driving across the desert, you can't just say "This road is boring, I'm going to head out across the sand and find my own way. I'll be OK because I have a big powerful engine."

We previously had a long discussion about the purpose of the beacons, probably over at JMSNews, and the general concensus appeared to be that the beacons (whether all jump gates or not) correspond to known, mapped locations in normal space. For ships with their own jump capability, it simply means that you can jump out of hyperspace without a gate (i.e. between beacons, for example). However, as long as you are in contact with the beacon network, and know exactly where you are in relation to the beacons, then you can easily calculate your exact position in normal space.

However, once you lose contact with the beacon network, jumping out of hyperspace puts you into unknown, unmapped territory so no star chart is going to help you find your way home.

 

[Chilli]

However, once you lose contact with the beacon network, jumping out of hyperspace puts you into unknown, unmapped territory so no star chart is going to help you find your way home.

They would have *some* approximate knowledge of where in the galaxy they were. Or if they didn't, they could determine this by determining the position of the galactic core in their viewfield. With that knowledge, they could identify multiple objects in their viewfield.

For example, they could do spectral analyses of nearby bright stars. Through a spectral analysis, they could identify a star's unique fingerprint instantly. Even today we have catalgues to identify stars by their spectral fingerprints, covering all the stars in our viewfield. These catalogues grow with every year, as every year, we get more and more measurements off stars that we don't actually see, but which telescopes - especially ones in orbit - do see. By the 23rd century, Humans would also have had the possibility to take measurements from all over the galaxy, to make these catalgues virtually complete for our galaxy - at least for relatively bright stars.

An explorer ship would most definitely have these catalogues. So there is no way in hell an explorer ship could not, in a random position in our galaxy, determine points A, B and C. And if you have the positions of A, B, and C, you know where you are. You don't even have to know their distances to you.

 

[KoshFan]

Sure, but would they then be able to find the hyperspace route home? Cortez might have been able to jump out and find where it is in normal space, but they'd probably hop back in and be even more lost in hyperspace than before.

 

[Sindatur]

Can you just jump out of Hyperspace into Normal space, without knowing where you're going. Or do you have to give coordinates that are within your jump range?

 

[Chilli]

Sure, but would they then be able to find the hyperspace route home? Cortez might have been able to jump out and find where it is in normal space, but they'd probably hop back in and be even more lost in hyperspace than before.

That's a valid point, I guess. Well .. not quite sure.

I know that hyperspace is quite complex, and that you can't map hyperspace 1:1 to normal space. However, if you couldn't to SOME degree do it, wouldn't ships forever fail to find beacons? With the knowledge of their location in normal space, wouldn't the Cortez know where to SORT OF look for the closest beacon, head in that direction, and eventually resore contact with it?

Unless, of course, the beacons are all extremely close to eachother - close enough that one of them is always in your visual range, making beacons a "rope" you follow along from beginning to end along your trip.

 

[Chilli]

Can you just jump out of Hyperspace into Normal space, without knowing where you're going. Or do you have to give coordinates that are within your jump range?

As I understand it, a "jump" is the construction of a temporary bridge between normal space and hyperspace. I don't think you need to know where you're jumping to open a jump port.

One danger would be jumping into an solid object, if jumping blindly. However, the odds of that happening would be practically zero.

 

[Skander]

I rated this episode "Good", probably a little higher than I probably should because there are some aesthetic characteristics that I've always loved about the episode. The musical score for this episode by Christopher Franke was awesome, especially the music when we see the Explorer ship--The Cortez (definitely weird choice of name, though). I also loved how the ship looked--it explores and builds jumpgates, so it should look like a flying construction site. I enjoyed Maynard's character well enough, even if the Stinky-Swamp Rat bit was a little cheesy. The ambience at Earhart's was nice and the one-shot characters (Commander Galis and Captain Maynard) played off the regulars really well. You also get a glimpse of the Shadows and that's always enough to perk me up--I liked all the episodes that only hinted at the presence of the powerful Darkness (Distant Star, Signs + Portents, Coming of Shadows, etc.)

 

[Cell]

http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/11/23/review-babylon-5-204/

 

[puzzle]

Sure, but would they then be able to find the hyperspace route home? Cortez might have been able to jump out and find where it is in normal space, but they'd probably hop back in and be even more lost in hyperspace than before.

That's precisely how I would explain it.

Sure enough, if your jump engines work (I'm not sure if Cortez had them functional or not) you can pop out into normal space... and go home by the long route, which probably takes about 300 years.

Attempting to go home by the short route would require ability to see "through" hyperspace, and define structures found there in terms of normal-space geometry... which, as implied, is overwhelmingly hard.

Hyperspace is described as opaque to almost anything, except very few things (the tachyon or whatever-they-were-called beams maintained between beacons), so you cannot see far enough. Also, hyperspace is implied to have a geometry which is rather different and difficult to link to normal space.

So that's why, as far as I understand, a ship which cannot navigate hyperspace (either by using beacons or otherwise), would not benefit much from having an intact jump engine.

But they could jump around blindly, and unless they jumped into a solid object or lethally uninhabitable area, they might jump near some habitable planet or viable source of natural resources. Which could make it possible to sustain trying for longer, or even amass enough useful resources to survive a trip home in normal space.

As I understand it, a "jump" is the construction of a temporary bridge between normal space and hyperspace. I don't think you need to know where you're jumping to open a jump port.

I've understood it that way too.

One danger would be jumping into an solid object, if jumping blindly. However, the odds of that happening would be practically zero.

Unless hyperspace is "bigger" where normal space has more mass, or objects in hyperspace drift towards normal-space centers of mass. But that's just an idea to play with.

 

[G'Kar]

Just watched this episode and I've come to the conclusion that a B to a B- seems fit for it. While it's not part of the best of Season 2 it does serve it's purpose of being a source of character development needed for Keffer and Sheridan.

 

[vacantlook]

And it gives us more exposure to the Shadows.

 

[Estelyn]

I too noticed and enjoyed the music that was used when the Cortez appeared. The series theme was also varied for the fighter ships, with a military undertone to it.

The "food plan" subplot was a nice touch of humour. I was disappointed at the end though - Garibaldi's tear-jerking story should have been a fake. I would have thought he'd invented it to appease Franklin - it doesn't feel genuine to me.

I had a déjà vu when Delenn said, "Understanding is not required, only obedience." Didn't Lennier say the same words earlier in the series?

 

[KoshFan]

I think it's the other way around on that, actually -- Lennier quotes her later on. But I'm just doing that from memory, I'm not sure.