EpDis: And The Sky Full Of Stars

[Cell]

I accepted a long time ago that the B5 universe just happens to be the most coincidental universe ever in the history of all fictional universes. It's amazing how many big events in the B5 universe boil down to pure chance or coincidence.

The entire Delenn killing Sinclair thing to me has always been a paradox, hence why I asked the question about it. The Minbari called off the war because humans had Minbari souls and so they couldn't kill them. Now all of a sudden they're all like, "Kill the one dude that we know has a soul for certain, a soul derived from the line of Valen no less." It's one of those things that really doesn't make that much sense from a strategic or planning point of view.

 

[Garovorkin]

I don't think He was connected to bureau 13 but the psicorps? Maybe, he could have been a member of rogue agency within the military, that to me seems more likely, its to bad they dispensed with him so soon, I too would have liked seeing him do a few more episodes.

 

[Cell]

You mean the Knights? I have always been under the impression that they were members of the military, or at the very least a covert government op. I don't see them as being Psi Corps because their operation was too overt to be Psi Corps. I don't think they would be Bureau 13 because they appear to be tied to the Psi Corps.

 

[Galahad]

Interesting that Delene was under orders to Kill Sinclair if he ever regained his memories, boy that would have been a mistake now wouldn't it. Whats interesting is the fact that the Mimbari in effect tortured the man who was Valen reborn.A rather interesting bit of irony there I'd also interesting that Delene just happened to pick the right ship to tractor in.

I don't think that was irony at all... that is where the circle begins... and not with Valen. If Delenn had pointed to another ship, it would presumably be that pilot's story and not Sinclair's.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Interesting that Delene was under orders to Kill Sinclair if he ever regained his memories, boy that would have been a mistake now wouldn't it. Whats interesting is the fact that the Mimbari in effect tortured the man who was Valen reborn.A rather interesting bit of irony there I'd also interesting that Delene just happened to pick the right ship to tractor in.

Yes, if Delenn had killed Valen this would change the future in a very dark way.Without him and B4 the Shadows would destroy B5 just like it was mentioned in Ivanova's distress signal from the future.After that they would win the war easily.Also there wouldn't be any Rangers, Castes, Grey Council or any of the known organizations in Minbari society.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Go to agree with Galahad here ... this is not a coincidence at all, but causality. They didn't just happen to chose the ship containing the guy who was going to go back in time to become Valen, that guy went back in time to become Valen precisely because he was picked up at that point and went on to lead the life he led after the Battle of the Line.

Minbari grab Sinclair, and question/torture him
Minbari discover Sinclair has the soul of Valen
Minbari surrender and let Sinclair go but decide to keep an eye on him
Minbari select Sinclair to command B5
Minbari then select Sinclair to go to Minbar and become ambassador/Ranger 1
Sinclair goes back in time to become Valen

Presumably if the Minbari had selected Mitchell instead, then it would have been Mitchell who went back in time to become Valen and not Sinclair.

 

[hypatia]

That is an excellent explanation, GH. I think the point that was missed was that whoever was picked was slated to go back in time and become Valen. Of course, there is still room for individual choice, there was an alternate reality that peeked through from time to time showing what would happen if the circle did not complete itself. So about all they were lucky with was finding someone willing to be fate's 'arrow'.

 

[KoshFan]

And even then, hyp, Sinclair was looking for that purpose long before he knew about it. Since most of us struggle with our purpose in life to some degree or another, most anyone could have fallen into that pattern of destiny. They were lucky to find someone as canny and open-minded as Sinclair, though. Most of the pilots out there would not have learned to "ignore the propaganda" and see the Minbari for who they were ten years after the war.

 

[Cell]

see the Minbari for who they were ten years after the war.

I don't know, I think most pilots would have been able to see the Minbari for the forlorn puppets of the Vorlons that they were.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I don't know, I think most pilots would have been able to see the Minbari for the forlorn puppets of the Vorlons that they were.

 

[Cell]

C'mon man, that one's really obvious. From day one the Minbari accepted every single thing the Vorlons had to say and went along with all of their plans, no questions asked. The Minbari were in essence the exact same as the Drakh, except for they eventually figured out what the real deal was while the Drakh were still puppets of the Shadows even after they left beyond the rim.

 

[KoshFan]

But since the Vorlons were so quiet at that point, it's hard to say that we could have seen the connection between them. Sinclair sees it later, but only once he's on Minbar. No, what I meant was, it's not every soldier who can see the good qualities of his old enemies.

 

[Cell]

Yeah, I get that, but I'm saying that any of the other pilots would have eventually discovered what Sinclair did because you spend enough time around the Minbari and the Vorlons and you can pick up on what their relationship really is. So they could have picked Mitchell or any other pilot and over the course of time I think they too would have discovered the true nature of the relationship between the Minbari and the Vorlons.

 

[Estelyn]

This episode does lend itself to all kinds of conspiracy theories, doesn't it?! What I wonder is, why are the two main guest characters called "Knights"? That would indicate some kind of order to which they belong. I don't recall anything similar coming up during the rest of the series.

This is a strong story with major importance for the arc. I like the way JMS gives only bits of information at a time, letting the sum build up over the coming seasons.

 

[Lennier's Tears]

What a great episode! This is a fun one to watch with new people, although I haven't done that in a few years. There's a big reveal, which then only creates LOTS of new questions. How could anybody NOT be drawn in?

I love all the Battle of the Line stuff, how Sinclair hasn't been able to remember, and how clearly this worries people. I love how all the scheming going on back on Earth is becoming more obvious ... I love the ever-growing mystery surrounding the Minbari. WHY did they surrender? Delenn was there! What do they not want Sinclair to remember? Why?? I love everything about it.

Until I read the Lurker's Guide page for this episode along with this comment thread, it never occurred to me that Ivanova's behavior is suspicious in this episode. I mean, yes, it's weird that Delenn has to walk over to the security office to get Garibaldi to check on the Commander, if she already spoke to Ivanova who apparently didn't try to contact the commander, or didn't care that she couldn't reach him. But, I figured that was just done to make it more dramatic and to involve Delenn in the disappearance right from the start. That is to say, I thought there were plot reasons for it, not in-story reasons. I never even picked up on the fact that Ivanova seems to be casually strolling down the corridor while everyone else is frantically searching for Sinclair. I figured she has business to take care of and some of that is going to involve walking places. It wasn't (isn't) at all obvious to me that she is strolling in a casual manner.

Is that on purpose like the stuff with Takashima in "The Gathering", or just a coincidence? Was it meant to make us suspect Ivanova when the [SPOILERS for Season 2, although if anyone's still reading this thread at this point I'm guessing they don't care about spoilers ] "Control personality" plotline came up?

Random little (or not so little) things that stood out on this viewing:

• There must be a reason there is no telepath involved in this plot to uncover Sinclair's "secrets". But, what IS that reason?
• Those outfits the "Knights" wear... They are interesting. Why are they wearing identical outfits? Is this a uniform of some kind?
• Basically, after all these years and multiple viewings, the Knights are still kind of a mystery to me.
• Are there no cabinets in Sinclair's kitchen?
• That Grey Council dude in Delenn's quarters at the end. Is he blind?
• The shiny triangles on the foreheads of Grey Council members .. I like how they look, but we don't see those again in later episodes, do we?
• What languages are the signs in Babylon 5 (below)? Also, while I kinda like the look of the font they used for the English, I don't know if it's the best choice for legibility, especially if they're randomly dropping letters left and right to make things fit on signs, as we see here ...