StarForBram
Regular
Easily the worst B5 episode IMO.
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EpDis: Believers
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
Ninja_Squirrel
Regular
I agree. This one and Soul Hunter tie as my least favorite of the series. I still give both a D-. Rick Biggs' performance in Believers is the only thing that saves this episode from an F in my gradebook.
GKarsEye
Regular
I can't believe that in a series with TKO, a plot that is ultimately pointless and has nothing to do with anything, people can call this the worst episode.
I gave it an 'A'
Yes, it is
and the fact that it's a real phenomenon makes it a poignant episode.
I gave it an 'A'
Yes, it is
and the fact that it's a real phenomenon makes it a poignant episode.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
While I agree with your well-made point about Believers, I want to stick up for TKO, which I think is overly maligned. I enjoyed the ep, and its point is clearly that humans often do not respect aliens, nor their traditions, and are disrespected in turn for it. This point, racism, may be more often visited than the point made in Believers, but it is at least as important.
Sindatur
Regular
On a first airing of the episode, and considering the premise, it's an excellent episode, IMHO, however, it doesn't bear repetititive viewing in my opion. Definitely it showed this was not a Star Trek clone.
Regading TKO, the B story was very good, and developed Ivanova very nicely.
Regading TKO, the B story was very good, and developed Ivanova very nicely.
RW7427
Super Moderator
Some of you here have called Believers the worst B5 episode. I'd save that destinction for Season 4's Intersections in Real Time. 
Believers, IMO, is a good ep, but not really bad enough to warrant "worse" status. It's not one that I really watch on a regular basis, but I'll still pop it in the VCR every now and then.
Believers, IMO, is a good ep, but not really bad enough to warrant "worse" status. It's not one that I really watch on a regular basis, but I'll still pop it in the VCR every now and then.
PillowRock
Regular
No. They are very clear on this point in a number of places. *Anything* where everybody that is involved is of the same species (or political agregate) is handled according to the laws of that species.
Edit to add: Otherwise *all* of the Drazi would have been arrested for assault and battery.
Applying B5's EA laws to non-EA citizens (or using diplomacy to determine what should happen in some cases) only comes up when the incident is inter-species.
PillowRock
Regular
It has been a fair while since I've seen Believers, so I would have to check and see if it is actually stated or if it was just my "impression", but ....
My impression was that the "shell", for purposes of losing one's soul, was basically defined as the thoracic cavity rather than the entire body. The typical, everybody-is-always-going-to-had-them types of injuries to the limbs would not be in an issue. Until medical science becomes relatively advanced (long after such a religous belief would have become engrained), the mortality rate from the kinds of wounds that would count would be very high regardless of whether they tried to save the victim.
Ninja_Squirrel
Regular
I'm almost there with you. IiRT rounds out my bottom three. My six least favorite episodes of the whole series are:
(D-) Believers
(D-) Soul Hunter
(D) Intersections in Real Time
(D+) Infection
(D+) A Spider in the Web
(D+) The Paragon of Animals
To me, Believers feels too much like a bad Star Trek episode (not to imply that all Star Trek is bad; most of the older stuff isn't, but every Trek show had its fair share of stinkers). The one good scene in it is where Sinclair is yelling at Franklin. The way Franklin yells back does cement his character as having great personal conviction. It's just too hard to put up with the rest of the episode just for that one scene.
PillowRock
Regular
Naaahhh; in Trek the kid would live at the end, the parents would see the error of their ways, and the Federation's respect for all life would be shown to be "Right".
A lot of people (among those who were watching back during the original P-TEN airings, anyway) have a warm place in their heart for Believers, even if they don't really care for the episode, purely because this is point when it was cemented in our minds that this was not a show that was going to play by Trek-like happy-ending with Humans-always-on-the-unequivocal-moral-high-ground rules.
GR tended to put together his current issues based episodes to build toward espousing a particular POV by the end. Even in the very rare occassions when the Federation was not left on the high ground, the audiance *and* the main characters always knew that at the end and knew where the high ground was. JMS, by contrast, was much more likely to raise issues for examination but then leave the audiance to figure out their own conclusions. Both approaches are valid and have their place in the philosophical marketplace. It was just nice to see something that was different. Very few shows, of any genre, had been willing to leave their protagonists as having any possiblity of not being proven right by the end of an episode (up until that time, anyway).
And just for the record: "because it feels like it could be any other SF show if you just changed the names" is precisely why Infection has always been my least favorite episode of B5.
GreenMonkey
Member
Agreed.
Agreed.
I liked the concept - the struggle between religion and science, and the consequences. There is no easy answer presented, and no easy cop-out.
This is the first ep where you see B5 is not just "another sci-fi show". I remember this ep from when I first saw the first 2 seasons of B5 in high school (and subsequently lost it when it moved to 3am).
Cell
Regular
Estelyn
Regular
This episode provides much food for thought. The question, whose religion is right, is shown to be unanswerable. Is life to be preserved, no matter what the cost? How could this child have lived on, rejected by his own parents? As is asked in the story, what makes a religion false? And what I appreciate most is that there is no right answer, no happy ending, no moral precision. The parents do not come around and see the correctness of the doctor's actions. This ain't Star Trek, boys and girls!
However, I think the true contrast is not between Franklin and the parents - it's between Sinclair and Franklin. The Commander is willing to see the larger picture, to make his decision based not on his own feeling of superiority, to display wisdom and humility. The doctor - a character whom I don't really like, though his stories are often well worht watching - is arrogant, with the delusions of Godhead that some doctors show. He's also hypocritical - he criticizes his fellow doctor for insulting the patient's god ("What kind of god do you worship?"), yet his actions say exactly the same thing.
Dr. Franklin continues to be one of the characters I like least, and I think much of that feeling is based on this episode.
On the other hand, I love the light-hearted way that Ivanova uses sarcasm to get the assignment to fly the mission! That was very funny. I thought it was a bit of a copout to have her return after a situation that seemed hopeless without a word on how it was resolved. JMS did say something about it on the Lurker's Guide though.
Interestingly, JMS compares the main plot to a classic and much lauded episode of original Star Trek - "The City on the Edge of Forever", where it is necessary to allow the death of a character to save millions of lives later on.
One of Sinclair's sentences seems to sum it all up: "Sometimes doing the right thing doesn't change anything."
Oh, and I agree with what was said earlier - Franklin should have been punished for his disobedience. Letting him carry on means he doesn't suffer any consequences of his action - and maybe suffering consequences would have been a good lesson for him, perhaps even saving him the future problems ahead...
However, I think the true contrast is not between Franklin and the parents - it's between Sinclair and Franklin. The Commander is willing to see the larger picture, to make his decision based not on his own feeling of superiority, to display wisdom and humility. The doctor - a character whom I don't really like, though his stories are often well worht watching - is arrogant, with the delusions of Godhead that some doctors show. He's also hypocritical - he criticizes his fellow doctor for insulting the patient's god ("What kind of god do you worship?"), yet his actions say exactly the same thing.
Dr. Franklin continues to be one of the characters I like least, and I think much of that feeling is based on this episode.
On the other hand, I love the light-hearted way that Ivanova uses sarcasm to get the assignment to fly the mission! That was very funny. I thought it was a bit of a copout to have her return after a situation that seemed hopeless without a word on how it was resolved. JMS did say something about it on the Lurker's Guide though.
Interestingly, JMS compares the main plot to a classic and much lauded episode of original Star Trek - "The City on the Edge of Forever", where it is necessary to allow the death of a character to save millions of lives later on.
One of Sinclair's sentences seems to sum it all up: "Sometimes doing the right thing doesn't change anything."
Oh, and I agree with what was said earlier - Franklin should have been punished for his disobedience. Letting him carry on means he doesn't suffer any consequences of his action - and maybe suffering consequences would have been a good lesson for him, perhaps even saving him the future problems ahead...
