A_M_Swallow
Regular
I hope you get better soon.
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EpDis: Day Of The Dead
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
KoshN
Super Moderator
Come on, Joe. 927?
Hey, I had minor (outpatient) surgery on both feet Saturday morning, and I've either been in pain (at work) or on pain killers (at home) ever since. I'm surprised I've managed to type my name right as often as I have.
I've been noticing that you haven't been your usual self, lately. Hope you feel better soon.
KoshN
Super Moderator
Seriously though, many healing vibes headed your way, and I hope you feel better soon. Painkillers are a wonderful thing. Got class 2 narcotics, or the lightweight stuff?
Tylenol-Codiene threes if you can believe it. And I had to ask the quack for that much.
OTOH, when I had a wisdom tooth pulled (which took a piece of bone with it) a couple months back, the oral surgeon gave me an Rx for Vicodin, which I never got filled because I had to drive. I just took Ibuprofen (Advil), the max dose, which dulled it a little.
She gets around. Been behind her, myself.
Urge to wring the quack's neck?
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
I wasn't feeling that charitable.
Think ... lower.
Thanks to everyone for all the good wishes.
Joe
Elipsis
Regular
I gave this a C only to find to my surprise that I was the only one to have done so.
It didn't seem to fit into the universe very well. Everything else supernatural is pretty much explainable as technology (arguably even telepaths are just bi-products of Vorlon advancements in genetic manipulation), but this doesn't really fall into that category. It also was rather inconsistent.
For example, why was Morden prophetic whereas Lochley's sister was just confused about where she was and what was going on. Why did Lennier, Lochley, Garibaldi, and Londo all skirt around the big question of what the deceased had experienced over the time since they've been dead?
I understand that the characters don't understand the phenomenon either, but it sure doesn't seem to fit into the B5 universe cleanly.
Also, Reebo and Zooty were not very interesting... even as a Penn and Teller fan I found their existence superfluous.
Lolz at actual real life foreshadowing, "we're thinking of getting into politics." Which is exactly what they did with their Bullshit series.
It didn't seem to fit into the universe very well. Everything else supernatural is pretty much explainable as technology (arguably even telepaths are just bi-products of Vorlon advancements in genetic manipulation), but this doesn't really fall into that category. It also was rather inconsistent.
For example, why was Morden prophetic whereas Lochley's sister was just confused about where she was and what was going on. Why did Lennier, Lochley, Garibaldi, and Londo all skirt around the big question of what the deceased had experienced over the time since they've been dead?
I understand that the characters don't understand the phenomenon either, but it sure doesn't seem to fit into the B5 universe cleanly.
Also, Reebo and Zooty were not very interesting... even as a Penn and Teller fan I found their existence superfluous.
Lolz at actual real life foreshadowing, "we're thinking of getting into politics." Which is exactly what they did with their Bullshit series.
Jan
Regular
We never found out what it was that the Soul Hunters captured. We never found out why the Centauri are able to foresee their deaths or why some of them are legitimate prophets. If we include Crusade, we don't know how the Forgiveness being did what it did or anything about Galen's lover's message from beyond the grave. I'm pretty sure there are other instances I'm not remembering right now.
Jan
Truth_Seeker
Regular
The episode is a B for me.I think that it would be much better if we were able to see Kosh again.Of course his message was absolutely in his cryptic style but it's not the same as seeing him.Marcus or Neroon were better choices for me than characters we had never seen before but anyway it's a good stand alone episode.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Aside from Lochley's dead friend Zoe, whom we have had no reason to see before since Lochley hadn't been in B5 until season five and Zoe died a long time before the show takes place, all the dead characters that visit we've seen before. Londo got to see Adira, the slave dancer he fell for in "Born To The Purple" that Morden had killed in "Interludes And Examinations". And Garibaldi got a visit from Dodger, a soldier who died in "GROPOS".
Truth_Seeker
Regular
I suppose I forgot about Dodger in GROPOS.My mistake.Zoe was the only new character we saw.
Estelyn
Regular
I'm a bit ambiguous about this episode. I agree that Rebo and Zooty would have been better left unseen - then we would at least have had the illusion that they're funny. However, their subplot does explore the intrinsic worth of art, showing that it can be just a important to people as politics. I do find it interesting that they have learned about Minbari humour, causing Delenn to laugh out loud.
The "Day of the Dead" plot is perhaps choppy. Exploring several people's "visions" means that each experience appears rather superficial because it is brief. Seeing Zoe gives us some background information on Lochley, which is good, and it resolves a question that has been haunting her. I don't understand what Dodger does to resolve anything for Garibaldi. Londo's longing for Adira is understandable, of course, and being with her once more before becoming Emperor gives him one last personal joy.
The combination that intrigues me most is that of Lennier and Morden. What connection is there? Is it the fact that Morden asks what Lennier wants - his standard question? The prophecy of Lennier's betrayal is the next stone in the mosaic, building up to the actual event later.
And of course Kosh's message is suitably mysterious, as could be expected of him.
The "Day of the Dead" plot is perhaps choppy. Exploring several people's "visions" means that each experience appears rather superficial because it is brief. Seeing Zoe gives us some background information on Lochley, which is good, and it resolves a question that has been haunting her. I don't understand what Dodger does to resolve anything for Garibaldi. Londo's longing for Adira is understandable, of course, and being with her once more before becoming Emperor gives him one last personal joy.
The combination that intrigues me most is that of Lennier and Morden. What connection is there? Is it the fact that Morden asks what Lennier wants - his standard question? The prophecy of Lennier's betrayal is the next stone in the mosaic, building up to the actual event later.
And of course Kosh's message is suitably mysterious, as could be expected of him.
Lennier's Tears
Regular
I LOVE Day of the Dead... for reasons I can't quite explain. There's just something sort of magical about this episode.
On the subject of Rebo and Zooty, I'm with Lochley. Yea, I understand that their humor is supposed to be appreciated in context, but I'm guessing that even in context, I wouldn't be amused. I don't much care for the Rebo and Zooty bits in this episode, but even so, I rank this one very highly.
I quite like the idea of a "Day of the Dead", and it fits well with what we know of the Brakiri .. which is very little, but they have that sort of gothy thing going on. I like the whole Day of the Dead atmosphere, with all the decorations and things. I also like that there is no explanation of what exactly happened there. I often get annoyed when things are left unexplained, but in this case it just really worked for me.
I think what I love most about this episode is seeing Londo with Adira again. It's nice that he gets to have another night with her, although I feel that seeing someone long dead again would be a LOT weirder than anyone on the show seems to think it is. I mean aside from the weird seemingly supernatural stuff going on .. have you ever seen someone who looks exactly like someone a deceased person you were close to? It's an extremely weird experience ... I think I commented on this before when Anna Sheridan returned from the dead. But, whatever, it's fiction, it works, I like those scenes.
The scenes with Lochley and her long-dead roommate are perhaps borderline cheesy, but that doesn't bother me either.It's nice to get some background on her. What a terribly non-secure passphrase, though! I'm assuming the passwords on Babylon 5 are more about voice recognition than the actual words spoken, because otherwise all the major characters would be in big trouble (Griffin? Come on.)
I still do not, and never will like puberty Lennier. I do like seeing him wearing the Ranger outfit, though. It's interesting that Morden would appear to him. And, did Morden get a haircut in the land of the dead? It amuses me how he keeps looking for coffee. The foreshadowing in the Lennier/Morden bit disturbed me a great deal the first time I watched this. I was so certain that Lennier would be killed off before the end of the show. It worried me greatly. Now I WISH Lennier had been killed off before the end of the show. But, we'll get to that when we get to that
I have to ask again, why do all the Brakiri appear male? If not for that woman whose presence sets off a fight between Sheridan and Garibaldi in Racing Mars, I'd believe that all Brakiri appear male to human eyes. Curious.
On the subject of Rebo and Zooty, I'm with Lochley. Yea, I understand that their humor is supposed to be appreciated in context, but I'm guessing that even in context, I wouldn't be amused. I don't much care for the Rebo and Zooty bits in this episode, but even so, I rank this one very highly.
I quite like the idea of a "Day of the Dead", and it fits well with what we know of the Brakiri .. which is very little, but they have that sort of gothy thing going on. I like the whole Day of the Dead atmosphere, with all the decorations and things. I also like that there is no explanation of what exactly happened there. I often get annoyed when things are left unexplained, but in this case it just really worked for me.
I think what I love most about this episode is seeing Londo with Adira again. It's nice that he gets to have another night with her, although I feel that seeing someone long dead again would be a LOT weirder than anyone on the show seems to think it is. I mean aside from the weird seemingly supernatural stuff going on .. have you ever seen someone who looks exactly like someone a deceased person you were close to? It's an extremely weird experience ... I think I commented on this before when Anna Sheridan returned from the dead. But, whatever, it's fiction, it works, I like those scenes.
The scenes with Lochley and her long-dead roommate are perhaps borderline cheesy, but that doesn't bother me either.It's nice to get some background on her. What a terribly non-secure passphrase, though! I'm assuming the passwords on Babylon 5 are more about voice recognition than the actual words spoken, because otherwise all the major characters would be in big trouble (Griffin? Come on.)
I still do not, and never will like puberty Lennier. I do like seeing him wearing the Ranger outfit, though. It's interesting that Morden would appear to him. And, did Morden get a haircut in the land of the dead? It amuses me how he keeps looking for coffee. The foreshadowing in the Lennier/Morden bit disturbed me a great deal the first time I watched this. I was so certain that Lennier would be killed off before the end of the show. It worried me greatly. Now I WISH Lennier had been killed off before the end of the show. But, we'll get to that when we get to that
I have to ask again, why do all the Brakiri appear male? If not for that woman whose presence sets off a fight between Sheridan and Garibaldi in Racing Mars, I'd believe that all Brakiri appear male to human eyes. Curious.
Jan
Regular
FWIW, according to the Alien Guide that Larry DiTillio wrote for the League of Non-Allighned Worlds, the Brakiri are a male-dominated society with a social structure similar to that of Earth about three hundred years ago.
Jan
Honestly I don't have a problem with the idea of Lennier committing some kind of betrayal out of love for Delenn but it was just done in a ham fisted fashion that went too against the grain for his character. Rather I would have preferred some kind of disobedience to try and save Delenn resulting in the deaths of others.
Lennier sticking his head in the sand again certainly makes sense but it does as Morden himself says feel like a bit of a wasted opportunity. I really like the idea of sending Morden back not to someone like Londo, Vir or Sheridan who he had history with but rather some one a bit more "morally sheltered" who had a world view he could poke a few holes in but we sadly only get a few hints at.
Indeed I think if CC had stayed Ivanova/Morden would have been a good pairing(considering the Macrus story was sposed to be unresolved) for similar reasons.
Lennier's Tears
Regular
That is a good point. He would do ANYTHING for her. But then what actually happens is he essentially betrays her in hopes of getting a chance with her. It IS in line with his weird bitter behavior throughout the fifth season, but it isn't in line with everything we learned about his character in previous seasons. I will definitely have more to say on that when I get to that particular episode in this rewatch (I've slowed down a bit, which tends to happen in the fifth season, but I've also just been a lot busier than before. Still going, though!)
I too would have liked to have seen some scenario like the one you suggest. It would have been a better fit. But alas.
I don't like how bitter Lennier has become, and how he seems convinced that if he trains hard enough he can be with Delenn. I know he's young and inexperienced, but does he really not understand that that's not how these things work? And what about his Ranger trainer? Does it not give him some sort of inner peace?
The #1 problem to me seemed to be that he simply didn't get enough focus in season 5 to have a "turn" built up and executed well. This episode is arguably a good example of that as he's not really given prime focus even though his story links into the arc more than anyone elses.
I think playing off Morden could have helped to setup the kind of "turn" I mentioned quite well. Basically have a conversation with him picking apart Lenniers world view, pointing out that unlike say Delenn he's never really dealt with moral grey areas or had to live with guilt from his previous actions.
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Springer
Regular
The only think that kind of makes sense about Lennier's bitterness to me is that he might have no longer felt needed at Delenn's side now she is married. You can't have three in a marriage and Lennier knows that – he can't be her constant companion when she now has wedding ring on her finger. So he doesn't feel he has a place now with her, so he leaves to avoid having to deal directly with it, and he trains hard because he's diverting all the energy from his frustration into that, because to him it's better than doing nothing, and I've been in that position so I know.
What Lennier needed to do in season 5 was to find his own path. Maybe not necessarily with the Rangers, maybe joining the Rangers could have led him down a road to a different destination. In the end though he just completely loses himself and what he stands for. It's like his moral anchor just vanishes.
Though I would say seeds for this plot line were sown in the fourth season. In The Summoning when Sheridan returns, Lennier is *not* happy. And then there's that conversation with Delenn in Rising Star about unrequited love. I think the most disappointing thing about Lennier's actions in Objects at Rest is that it sends the message that unrequited love leads to jealousy and selfishness.
What Lennier needed to do in season 5 was to find his own path. Maybe not necessarily with the Rangers, maybe joining the Rangers could have led him down a road to a different destination. In the end though he just completely loses himself and what he stands for. It's like his moral anchor just vanishes.
Though I would say seeds for this plot line were sown in the fourth season. In The Summoning when Sheridan returns, Lennier is *not* happy. And then there's that conversation with Delenn in Rising Star about unrequited love. I think the most disappointing thing about Lennier's actions in Objects at Rest is that it sends the message that unrequited love leads to jealousy and selfishness.
Which just didn't play with the way the character had developed prior to that for me, we didn't really get the sense he was only involved in the cause due to love for Delenn.
Another way to do it might I'd say have been to have him not fail the moral standards of others but his own moral standards. The simplist change I spose would be having things play out as they do but not have Sheridan or anyone but Lennier know that he failed to help. Although that wouldn't really address the moral shift entirely it would at least mean that he banishes himself on his own judgement not that of others.
Something like that again could have been foreshadowed with Morden. What I always liked about B5 compared to Trek was that characters like Sheridan and Delenn whilst obviously very moral kept there eye on the greater good rather than staying whiter than white and having the universe bend over backwards to reward them in a most unrealistic fashion. Lennier was more of the trek kind of character IMHO and someone like Morden who could likely have justified his actions in a pragmatic fashion would have been good to pick some holes in that.
Lennier's Tears
Regular
I guess part of my problem is that I do not understand how having a wedding fundamentally alters a relationship. That isn't to say that it doesn't, in general, just that I personally don't get how changing your relationship status in the eyes of the law changes your relationship status in any other way. I have been married, and for me, having a ceremony and signing some papers didn't make the relationship different at all. Except maybe that for several weeks after the wedding I kept laughing at the idea that I was married because it seemed so ridiculous. But, that's just me
So, it's hard for me to grasp why Lennier is so hung up on the marriage thing. He's all "well, now that you're married, I've got to get out of your way". Was he maybe just hopeful that as long as Sheridan and Delenn weren't married, maybe there was still a chance they'd decide they didn't want to be together after all?
Lennier's job description doesn't change depending on Delenn's relationship status. Unless there is something about Minbari culture I never picked up on before, I would imagine there is little to no overlap between the "aide" position and the "romantic partner" position. Lennier and Delenn have become close and he is more to her than just an aide (confidant, friend, ..) but, her having a love interest doesn't mean she doesn't still need an aide. That's why arrangements are being made for a replacement. Lennier knows that also, so when he says "You don't need me" I guess he doesn't mean she doesn't need an aide, but more like that she doesn't need him, personally? I could definitely see how a person might feel that way, and wouldn't want to be around a person who didn't love them in the way they hoped they would. But, Lennier seemed to be doing just fine suppressing his own feelings in the past.
For me, the first hint of his bitterness is in that comment about unrequited love in Rising Star. I've seen people discuss Lennier's "disappointment" at Sheridan's "resurrection" (soo many quotation marks), but I just really don't see that. Again, that isn't to say it's not there, just that I haven't been able to detect it. I've been known to miss obvious things, but I would argue that this one isn't remotely obvious. I could be wrong
I agree with Springer at #37 that Lennier's somewhat obsessive Ranger training makes perfect sense in the context of him getting away from the Delenn situation and redirecting his frustration. Joining the Rangers seems like the logical choice for someone with his background in that particular situation. I don't object to that part of it at all. I do object to him telling Delenn "Well, maybe if I complete this training, you'll like me the way I want you to" (I paraphrase ) which is just painful to watch. I know he's young, and presumably his extensive training on Minbar didn't include anything to do with interpersonal relationships (it really should, though), but that seems like some high level cluelessness from an otherwise bright person.
This sort of toxic cocktail of wishful thinking, jealousy, bitterness isn't unrealistic in itself. It's a quite common thing among real world humans, and it leads otherwise reasonable people to do horrible things, much like what we see happen to Lennier in this storyline. What I object to (and it seems to me from the replies that this is also what others object to) is that this doesn't fit with what we know of Lennier's personality. He seems like one of the most loyal, devoted, and conscientious characters on the show. And perhaps that's why this is his fifth season storyline. It wouldn't have been very interesting to see someone less conscientious do what Lennier does. But my ability to stretch my willingness to believe only goes so far.
I guess my main takeaway from this storyline is that for beloved characters, there are fates worse than death!
So, it's hard for me to grasp why Lennier is so hung up on the marriage thing. He's all "well, now that you're married, I've got to get out of your way". Was he maybe just hopeful that as long as Sheridan and Delenn weren't married, maybe there was still a chance they'd decide they didn't want to be together after all?
Lennier's job description doesn't change depending on Delenn's relationship status. Unless there is something about Minbari culture I never picked up on before, I would imagine there is little to no overlap between the "aide" position and the "romantic partner" position. Lennier and Delenn have become close and he is more to her than just an aide (confidant, friend, ..) but, her having a love interest doesn't mean she doesn't still need an aide. That's why arrangements are being made for a replacement. Lennier knows that also, so when he says "You don't need me" I guess he doesn't mean she doesn't need an aide, but more like that she doesn't need him, personally? I could definitely see how a person might feel that way, and wouldn't want to be around a person who didn't love them in the way they hoped they would. But, Lennier seemed to be doing just fine suppressing his own feelings in the past.
For me, the first hint of his bitterness is in that comment about unrequited love in Rising Star. I've seen people discuss Lennier's "disappointment" at Sheridan's "resurrection" (soo many quotation marks), but I just really don't see that. Again, that isn't to say it's not there, just that I haven't been able to detect it. I've been known to miss obvious things, but I would argue that this one isn't remotely obvious. I could be wrong
I agree with Springer at #37 that Lennier's somewhat obsessive Ranger training makes perfect sense in the context of him getting away from the Delenn situation and redirecting his frustration. Joining the Rangers seems like the logical choice for someone with his background in that particular situation. I don't object to that part of it at all. I do object to him telling Delenn "Well, maybe if I complete this training, you'll like me the way I want you to" (I paraphrase
) which is just painful to watch. I know he's young, and presumably his extensive training on Minbar didn't include anything to do with interpersonal relationships (it really should, though), but that seems like some high level cluelessness from an otherwise bright person.This sort of toxic cocktail of wishful thinking, jealousy, bitterness isn't unrealistic in itself. It's a quite common thing among real world humans, and it leads otherwise reasonable people to do horrible things, much like what we see happen to Lennier in this storyline. What I object to (and it seems to me from the replies that this is also what others object to) is that this doesn't fit with what we know of Lennier's personality. He seems like one of the most loyal, devoted, and conscientious characters on the show. And perhaps that's why this is his fifth season storyline. It wouldn't have been very interesting to see someone less conscientious do what Lennier does. But my ability to stretch my willingness to believe only goes so far.
I guess my main takeaway from this storyline is that for beloved characters, there are fates worse than death!
I'm with you in not picking up any real disappointment from Lennier about Sheridans return, the main pointer before season 5 is his conversation from Marcus back in season 3.
Again I feel a better way to take Lenniers story might have been to prey of his naivety. Not in practical terms of course as he was obviously very competent there but as I said I think morality he tended to have more of a black and white view. Where as a lot of the characters have to learn to live with either mistakes and make judgements for the greater good that result in the deaths of others he doesn't really. His view of his relationship with Delenn seems to follow this as well.
For someone like that it wouldn't take something as extreme as effectively trying to kill a rival for Delenns affection to cause him to make a negative judgement on himself. Morden could have built up to that nicely IMHO looking to justify his actions as being for what he saw as the greater good and questioning Lenniers world view.
Again I feel a better way to take Lenniers story might have been to prey of his naivety. Not in practical terms of course as he was obviously very competent there but as I said I think morality he tended to have more of a black and white view. Where as a lot of the characters have to learn to live with either mistakes and make judgements for the greater good that result in the deaths of others he doesn't really. His view of his relationship with Delenn seems to follow this as well.
For someone like that it wouldn't take something as extreme as effectively trying to kill a rival for Delenns affection to cause him to make a negative judgement on himself. Morden could have built up to that nicely IMHO looking to justify his actions as being for what he saw as the greater good and questioning Lenniers world view.
