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EpDis: Dust To Dust
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
Lousy_Dodgers
Regular
And episodic sci-fi shows for that matter.
My one quibble with the show was that G'Kar's sentencing at the end seemed a bit light for the crime involved. Granted, I did not expect him to get spaced or anything but the 60-day sentence (if I remember it correctly) just seems disproportionate for one who used an illegal substance and then assaulted two people. Perhaps there is an explanation in the sense that space is a premium on B5 and you cannot simply lock people up for years on end since the cost would be astronomical (sorry for that pun).
And yes, the pinata line is one of the classics.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
JMS has said that neither the Narn nor the Centauri ever rose to the status of First Ones, but that they didn't become extinct, at least within the compass of the period he outlined (which extends a million years into the future.) Kosh's line refers to both ot them. They are declining, or at least stagnating.
Of course, once the Drakh are gone the endless Narn-Centauri conflict does come to an end. The Centauri become a very different people after they suffer decades of occupation, have most of their old political class wiped out and come under the enlightened rule of Vir Coto. They and the Narn may never completely overcome their mutual hatred, and therefore never advance as the Humans and Minbari do, but they don't have to act on it. That's another lesson to be taken from B5 and from history, especially given the current world situation. Catholics and Protestants are no closer on matters of doctrine now than they were when Luther published his 95 theses, but they don't go around burning one another at the stake anymore.
Regards,
Joe
Of course, once the Drakh are gone the endless Narn-Centauri conflict does come to an end. The Centauri become a very different people after they suffer decades of occupation, have most of their old political class wiped out and come under the enlightened rule of Vir Coto. They and the Narn may never completely overcome their mutual hatred, and therefore never advance as the Humans and Minbari do, but they don't have to act on it. That's another lesson to be taken from B5 and from history, especially given the current world situation. Catholics and Protestants are no closer on matters of doctrine now than they were when Luther published his 95 theses, but they don't go around burning one another at the stake anymore.
Regards,
Joe
Lousy_Dodgers
Regular
I have read that same commentary from JMS and it leads me to ask one more question: Do the Narn and Centauri go beyond the rim anyway? They may not reach the status of First Ones in terms of evolution but if their civilizations do not vanish, they would become rather powerful technologically. If they remained, their presence might hinder the opportunities for younger races to develop...or perhaps they reach an agreement with the humans and Minbari to pull back to their home systems and withdraw from interstellar affairs.
Lousy_Dodgers
Regular
True, but at least as of one million years from now, the humans were still around and on their way to the Vorlon homeworld. Maybe when the humans finally leave, they will throw the Narn and the Centauri in the backseat--metaphorically anyway--and take them along.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
I don't think you can go Beyond the Rim if you aren't a First One. There is nothing in the interstellar void - no place to make pit stops for fuel and food. So unless both your technology and biology are way advanced, you're not going very far once you're out in the great, gaping blackness were no stars or planets abide. All you're going to have to live on is what you bring with you. And nobody makes a lunch box that big.
Eventually, after many millions of years, the Humans and Minbari, like the Vorlons and the Shadows, will probably go beyond the Rim. By that time the Narn and Centauri may be extinct. Don't forget, JMS's detailed notes end at the point where the Humans have become "First Ones", but the departure from Earth and the move to (presumably) the former Vorlon Homeworld singals the beginning of their tenure as guardians and teachers of the younger races, not its end.
Also, as noted, the Narn and Centauri have been effectively weaned from their cycle of war by the time of "SiL". G'Kar's teachings have started to take hold on a Narn that is returning to its agricultural origins with the aid of Minbari technology (see the short story "True Seeker" for an early glimpse of the process during G'Kar's lifetime) The Centauri have been humbled by having the tables turned on them and being the occupied for a change, and the corrupt political leadership that put them in that position has been purged. Vir can show that Londo's anti-IA propganda was the work of the Drakh and work with the organization and, especially, the Narn. He can also do what Emperor Turhan was unable to do - stand before a Narn as emperor and say, "I'm sorry."
So I doubt they'd either have to withdraw within their own borders or go on squabbling. And by the time the Humans and Minbari leave, the Even Younger races (which will include some more with First One potential) should be able to handle the Centauri and the Narn, who would therefore be unlikely to get out of line.
Regards,
Joe
Eventually, after many millions of years, the Humans and Minbari, like the Vorlons and the Shadows, will probably go beyond the Rim. By that time the Narn and Centauri may be extinct. Don't forget, JMS's detailed notes end at the point where the Humans have become "First Ones", but the departure from Earth and the move to (presumably) the former Vorlon Homeworld singals the beginning of their tenure as guardians and teachers of the younger races, not its end.
Also, as noted, the Narn and Centauri have been effectively weaned from their cycle of war by the time of "SiL". G'Kar's teachings have started to take hold on a Narn that is returning to its agricultural origins with the aid of Minbari technology (see the short story "True Seeker" for an early glimpse of the process during G'Kar's lifetime) The Centauri have been humbled by having the tables turned on them and being the occupied for a change, and the corrupt political leadership that put them in that position has been purged. Vir can show that Londo's anti-IA propganda was the work of the Drakh and work with the organization and, especially, the Narn. He can also do what Emperor Turhan was unable to do - stand before a Narn as emperor and say, "I'm sorry."
So I doubt they'd either have to withdraw within their own borders or go on squabbling. And by the time the Humans and Minbari leave, the Even Younger races (which will include some more with First One potential) should be able to handle the Centauri and the Narn, who would therefore be unlikely to get out of line.
Regards,
Joe
KoshFan
Regular
I imagined both the Narn and the Centauri fading as races. They would essentially become anachronisms, and likely dwindle in numbers to the point where they are no longer counted even among the minor races.
I was tempted to write a short story about the Human/Minbari guardianship of the new younger races. I was going to have the Minbari say to an overzealous follower, "Obedience is not required. Only understanding."
I was tempted to write a short story about the Human/Minbari guardianship of the new younger races. I was going to have the Minbari say to an overzealous follower, "Obedience is not required. Only understanding."
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Nice twist on Lennier's words, KF, oh so appropriate for a FirstOne-level Minbari.
Elipsis
Regular
There were so many good things in this episode, and it served to blur the line between "good guys" and "bad guys" here. I loved that Ivanova was about to straight up murder Bester, that Bester makes the fair point that what he does is no different than what Garibaldi does with intimidating people. And the scene with Londo and G'kar... wow!
I really liked this episode because it really questions morality and shoves a bunch of our characters into the big grey area.
I really liked this episode because it really questions morality and shoves a bunch of our characters into the big grey area.
crazyhorse
Anarchist
I always wondered why G'Kar got away with mind rape so easily both in the courts and with the viewers.
Did Londo have it coming to him and does this make it more acceptable?
As for what races survive,we have only a guess from a being from a decadent race
Did Londo have it coming to him and does this make it more acceptable?
As for what races survive,we have only a guess from a being from a decadent race
hypatia
Regular
I commented on this some time ago. Some people here had some good arguments for it, though. The one I remember now is that G'kar now knew pretty much everything about Londo. Londo knew G'kar knows pretty much what he's been up to. So the didn't "push" for any stronger conviction.
There were other reasons, I can't remember though why his opinion would make much of a difference in a criminal trial. The courts don't go lighter on someone, significantly lighter, if the victim doesn't push for a strict sentence? So I don't know quite how that's supposed to work out, but it's a valid question.
That's one of the many questions this episode brings out. Especially since he would have, happily, killed Londo. Kosh is the reason he stopped, isn't it?
As for what races survive,we have only a guess from a being from a decadent race
Decadent? I think that's the first time I've ever heard the Vorlons called quite that.
It's an interesting perspective. Now I'll picture all these encounter-suited beings sitting on the beach and having orgies and such.
Eww, Vorlon mating... don't know if I quite want to go there... :shocked:
Galahad
Regular
And by the time the Humans and Minbari leave, the Even Younger races (which will include some more with First One potential) should be able to handle the Centauri and the Narn, who would therefore be unlikely to get out of line.
This raises a question that has often been on my mind. It's interesting that the two races that reach "First One status", have genes from one another's species introduced into them.
Does this imply that there may have been a particular DNA sequence that appears fragmented in humans and minbari, but which eventually through the introduction of foreign DNA both ways (Valen and Delenn), evetually fuses into a single sequence over time, that triggers the evolution of both species into higher beings.
hypatia
Regular
I don't know, but as a science, why wouldn't the same apply to animals? Is a mule more "evolved" than a horse or a donkey? It can't even reproduce, if I remember correctly.
Although, it's possible the Triluminary transformation also made something else happen, that was passed on. Perhaps the transformation made them (Valen and Delen) more genetically compatible than a horse and mule. Did the homosapien race evolve by cross-mating with Neanderthals? Would that make them more evolutionarily advanced? I guess so.
So, hmm, the question I suppose is: can David have children? Well, Valen certainly did, and his offspring had more offspring.
So, interesting thought. I've never heard that theory/perspective on the episode before.
Although, it's possible the Triluminary transformation also made something else happen, that was passed on. Perhaps the transformation made them (Valen and Delen) more genetically compatible than a horse and mule. Did the homosapien race evolve by cross-mating with Neanderthals? Would that make them more evolutionarily advanced? I guess so.
So, hmm, the question I suppose is: can David have children?
Well, Valen certainly did, and his offspring had more offspring. So, interesting thought. I've never heard that theory/perspective on the episode before.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Not all hybrids are sterile. There is a phenomenon called hybrid vigor, or heterosis, which is that some hybrids, or crossbreeds, are somewhat superior to either parent. Bet you can find more details on Wikipedia, if you are interested.
