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EpDis: GROPOS
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
Elric
Regular
This is my least favourite episode in season 2 (not bad enough for a D though). I think it appears worse coming after one of (if not the) best episode in the season.
As previously pointed out, the end was very good. I like the way that B5 does not glorify war, but shows it for what it really is - a terrible loss of life!
As previously pointed out, the end was very good. I like the way that B5 does not glorify war, but shows it for what it really is - a terrible loss of life!
Springer
Regular
I didn't really like this episode very much. It was a character-driven episode, but none of the characters were very interesting. The Franklin's father/son storyline was a bit wishy-washy, and I could never see the attraction of Dodger. Probably the best character moment in the episode is between Ivanova and Franklin in medlab. I gave the episode a C.
And the riot scenes always make me laugh. This one in GROPOS wasn't too bad, but there is one later in The Long Twilight Struggle which is really really bad! But because the story is so strong you can gloss over it.
And the riot scenes always make me laugh. This one in GROPOS wasn't too bad, but there is one later in The Long Twilight Struggle which is really really bad! But because the story is so strong you can gloss over it.
GKarsEye
Regular
They can, it's just annoying.
I was of course exaggerating when I said my "respect" for Garibaldi went down. After Sheridan, he's my favorite human character on the show. He just had moment of idiocy. Happens, no big deal.
I don't think it would bother me at all if it weren't for Day of the Dead, actually.
Cute, ass-kicking fiesty red-head. Amongst the top three hottest chick characters to guest star on B5 (along with Number One and Franklin's singer).
Here's something that I don't like about the episode: the battle had no significance to the overall story. I must have seen the entire series half a dozen times and I don't even remember what they were fighting about.
Also, isn't a bit cheesy that everyone we met died? Yeah, yeah, war is horrible, we know. I think the only character we met that survived was General Franklin (and maybe the drill seargent).
The big black guy that crashed with Keffer: cool or annoying?
I was of course exaggerating when I said my "respect" for Garibaldi went down. After Sheridan, he's my favorite human character on the show. He just had moment of idiocy. Happens, no big deal.
I don't think it would bother me at all if it weren't for Day of the Dead, actually.
Cute, ass-kicking fiesty red-head. Amongst the top three hottest chick characters to guest star on B5 (along with Number One and Franklin's singer).
Here's something that I don't like about the episode: the battle had no significance to the overall story. I must have seen the entire series half a dozen times and I don't even remember what they were fighting about.
Also, isn't a bit cheesy that everyone we met died? Yeah, yeah, war is horrible, we know. I think the only character we met that survived was General Franklin (and maybe the drill seargent).
The big black guy that crashed with Keffer: cool or annoying?
hypatia
Regular
Yea, it was a bit over-the-top that they all died, I suppose, but it was a quick way to make his point.
I liked the back-slapping big, black guy. Yea, I agree with those who say the characters were awfully stereotypical. Depth wasn't what JMS was going for in this one, I think. He was going for color, flavor more than content or depth.
Despite the 2-d kind of guest characters, I actually liked them a lot.
Will anyone vote with me about the backdrop during Franklin's father's interview was the most unconvincing you've ever seen in B5?
I have not seen the series for some time, and have not seen it 12 times. But I still remember thinking "wow, that's pretty horrible".
I liked the back-slapping big, black guy. Yea, I agree with those who say the characters were awfully stereotypical. Depth wasn't what JMS was going for in this one, I think. He was going for color, flavor more than content or depth.
Despite the 2-d kind of guest characters, I actually liked them a lot.
Will anyone vote with me about the backdrop during Franklin's father's interview was the most unconvincing you've ever seen in B5?
I have not seen the series for some time, and have not seen it 12 times. But I still remember thinking "wow, that's pretty horrible". PillowRock
Regular
Yeah, I liked Dodger. I'm not sure about the "top 3", though. Naturally this is a matter of personal taste, but I also liked Julie Catlin Brown when she came back to guest as a human (Sheridan's appointed lawyer).
On the other hand, it isn't necessarily unrealistic. Most of them were in the same squad. It looked like they had gotten caught in a "killing zone" area (probably approaching the fortifications); *lots* of corpses in a very small area. It happens. Whole units can get wiped out pretty easily if they get caught in a spot like that. That has been true since at least the American Civil War (much before that the weaponry just wasn't efficient enough).
vacantlook
Super Moderator
I lean toward annoying too.
PillowRock
Regular
As a one-shot he was OK.
If he had been around for an ongoing period, he would have quickly become annoying (if they didn't flesh him out more).
If he had been around for an ongoing period, he would have quickly become annoying (if they didn't flesh him out more).
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Very true.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
What I liked most about this EP, was that war, instead of being portrayed as brave and glorious, was portrayed as ill-conceived, brutal, and deadly.
I also liked the Garibaldi-Dodger thing for its interesting role reversal. It's usually the guy going off to war, not knowing if he will ever make it back, who expects sex from a woman, due to his situation. And, in the movies, he usually gets it, even in WWII era films! This was a total reversal. I think Garibaldi was a jerk to wimp out as he did, under the circumstances. Dodger was right - it was supposed to be uncomplicated, and not a continuing relationship, so Mr. G's baggage had no place there.
I also liked the Garibaldi-Dodger thing for its interesting role reversal. It's usually the guy going off to war, not knowing if he will ever make it back, who expects sex from a woman, due to his situation. And, in the movies, he usually gets it, even in WWII era films! This was a total reversal. I think Garibaldi was a jerk to wimp out as he did, under the circumstances. Dodger was right - it was supposed to be uncomplicated, and not a continuing relationship, so Mr. G's baggage had no place there.
Chilli
High Treason Prevention Officer
It's not a JMS episode .. which probably explains why we all like it less than any random other given episode
I agree .. *everyone* dying was a bit too .. over-the-top predictable drama. Yes, it's war, yes, lots of people die .. but .. everyone really? Except for the general .. who would be in the safest position anyways I suppose.
As for the complete non-relevance of the war .. reminds me a bit of the times there have been US military strikes on the news outside of reported conflicts that just seemed so .. random. Though this was a bit .. big for random, yes.
And I guess I'm the only one for whom the Franklin's dad thingy just got a bit too .. clichee in the end. Oh well
vacantlook
Super Moderator
I rewatched this episode recently, I having read of others mentioning how irrelevant it was to other things, I was actually surprised to find that there are a few lines in the episode that make it relevant (though not super-relevant; it was connected, I guess you could say).
General Franklin tells Sheridan that the world that he's taking the GROPOS to help squash a rebellion at is in a strategic position. In helping the government of that planet put down the rebellion, Earth is going to get the right to establish a military presence there. And that that planet is quite near both Narn and Centauri space. So should the Centauri-Narn War get to a point that Earth would have to full-on take part of, that planet would be a serious base for Earth's forces.
Having watched this episode recently on my DVD here's a response. I thought there were some great dialog moments, such as the scenes in LT Keffer’s room, General Franklin’s put down of Garibaldi, and the reconciliation between younger and elder Franklins. But, being an Army veteran there were some glaring glitches. When Sheridan, Garibaldi and Ivanova report to the initial briefing and General Franklin orders “at ease” Sheridan and Ivanova assume the proper position, but Garibaldi puts his hands in his pockets, a definite no-no. (If a Soldier stands around with his hands in his pockets, he might suffer a rude joke.) After departing the briefing from General Franklin, Sheridan, Garibaldi and Ivanova carry on a veiled conversation about it in the hall with subordinates present. I can assure you that no top secret information would be discussed in any fashion in the hearing of anyone that did not possess the same level of clearance.
Another matter was that I noticed that everyone properly addressed the GROPOS Command Sergeant Major as “Sergeant Major,” except for Ivanova. She committed the faux pax of calling him “Sergeant.” Under normal circumstances the Sergeant Major would probably have reported the matter to the General and she would have received a private counseling about showing the respect due the division’s senior non-commissioned officer. The military takes respect of every rank very seriously. (Actually a real Commander would know better.)
In terms of the operation on Akdor, JMS, writing the episode in 1995, seems to have conceived the tactical assault with Viet Nam in mind rather than the modern strategy employed in the first Gulf War, which occurred in 1990-1991. Where was the air support that could have taken out the mine fields and leveled the fortress with bunker busting bombs? Why didn’t the EA Division level the fortress with rockets from ground artillery? Why not level the fortress with missiles from the Destroyer in orbit? Why not use a tactical nuke on the fortress? But, if you actually wanted to preserve the fortress there is such a thing as a neutron weapon that kills without destroying the infrastructure or even chemical weapons. And, what was the point of a helicopter assault as was commonly used in Viet Nam? Today helicopters are not flown close enough to an objective to receive direct fire from the enemy. The infantry makes far more use of light armored vehicles to take them to an objective. I would expect that military tactics, weaponry and equipment would get more sophisticated two hundred years from now, not be inferior to current capabilities. (JMS must not have had a military advisor on this episode.) This aspect of GROPOS was disappointing!
QMCO5
Another matter was that I noticed that everyone properly addressed the GROPOS Command Sergeant Major as “Sergeant Major,” except for Ivanova. She committed the faux pax of calling him “Sergeant.” Under normal circumstances the Sergeant Major would probably have reported the matter to the General and she would have received a private counseling about showing the respect due the division’s senior non-commissioned officer. The military takes respect of every rank very seriously. (Actually a real Commander would know better.)
In terms of the operation on Akdor, JMS, writing the episode in 1995, seems to have conceived the tactical assault with Viet Nam in mind rather than the modern strategy employed in the first Gulf War, which occurred in 1990-1991. Where was the air support that could have taken out the mine fields and leveled the fortress with bunker busting bombs? Why didn’t the EA Division level the fortress with rockets from ground artillery? Why not level the fortress with missiles from the Destroyer in orbit? Why not use a tactical nuke on the fortress? But, if you actually wanted to preserve the fortress there is such a thing as a neutron weapon that kills without destroying the infrastructure or even chemical weapons. And, what was the point of a helicopter assault as was commonly used in Viet Nam? Today helicopters are not flown close enough to an objective to receive direct fire from the enemy. The infantry makes far more use of light armored vehicles to take them to an objective. I would expect that military tactics, weaponry and equipment would get more sophisticated two hundred years from now, not be inferior to current capabilities. (JMS must not have had a military advisor on this episode.) This aspect of GROPOS was disappointing!
QMCO5
