EpDis: GROPOS

[A_M_Swallow]

GROPOS was written by Lawrence G. DiTillio

But, being an Army veteran there were some glaring glitches. When Sheridan, Garibaldi and Ivanova report to the initial briefing and General Franklin orders “at ease” Sheridan and Ivanova assume the proper position, but Garibaldi puts his hands in his pockets, a definite no-no. (If a Soldier stands around with his hands in his pockets, he might suffer a rude joke.)

Garibaldi did not get to be an NCO by not knowing how to stand at attention in the presence of an officer. There is another way of reading Garibaldi keeping his hands in his pockets. He is saying, "I may wear a uniform but I am a civilian. Military officers cannot give me orders."

Garibaldi is head of Babylon 5 Security rather than its military police. Sheridan can give Garibaldi orders because he is Governor of Babylon 5. Civilians can choose to obey instructions given by a general.

 

[KoshFan]

I thought Garibaldi was still EarthForce, though.

Either way, JMS or DiTillio was no military man. They were more likely to get literary quotations right than military protocol.

 

[Springer]

Yeah, Garibaldi is in Earthforce- check out his insignia on his uniform. Zack isn't in Earthforce (well, he is by the time of Sleeping in Light, but not during most of the series). The other security officers don't have an Earthforce insignia, but the B5 security insignia.

But the tactics in the battle don't make much sense if the object was to obliterate the enemy. If that was the case, just nuke the fortress from orbit. But were there other objectives, perhaps hostages that had to be rescued that required a direct assault?

 

[hypatia]

I don't get how everyone figured nuking is such an easy option. What if they need to inhabit the place in a few days? Even a neutron bomb spreads radiation for a time, doesn't it?

 

[Springer]

I don't get how everyone figured nuking is such an easy option. What if they need to inhabit the place in a few days? Even a neutron bomb spreads radiation for a time, doesn't it?

Yeah, agreed, point taken. I think I used the term "nuke" flippantly. What I meant was bomb the fotress from orbit, using whatever weaponry was appropriate.

I remember reading in New Scientist that the US military were trying to make a "gamma-ray bomb". I forget the details, but it wouldn't destroy the infrastructure like a nuclear weapon would, but it would kill anyone living in the vicinity, and wouldn't leave any radiation behind. Maybe a weapon like that could have been an option.

It also depends what is outlawed. Mass drivers were outlawed. Of course, they could wreak real destruction. But maybe other forms of bombardment from orbit were outlawed too. Remember in The Fall of Centauri Prime, the Narn and Drazi forces just use their beam weapons on the planet, not missiles or asteroids or nukes or anything. Maybe in the attack on Akdor, Earthforce weren't even allowed to use any serious weaponry from orbit, which meant they had to go for a direct infantry attack.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Could have been a game involving rock, scizzors and paper. Perhaps the fortress was uniquely equipped to deal with orbital opponents (enough to force the Earth starship to stay outside its field of view) and low-altitude aerial attack/landing *was* sensible?

We weren't really told.

Nor can we make much assumptions about the mines used in the proposed time and place (the cost of clearing them, or the feasibility of clearing them with robotic vehicles). Might have been excessively smart mines, refusing to detonate for anything which EarthForce could quickly send to clear them.

One thing seems sure, though... given how apparently close the helicopter-like thingies got, I would suspect the fortress *could* have been leveled with a cruise missile or drone carrying some suitable weapon of mass destruction.

Then again, there could be an explanation to that not happening -- like such an option being politically difficult.

 

[babylonfan]

Perhaps the campaign was led by politicians instead of generals. Would not be the first time a war was done this way. For instance Rolling Thunder in Vietnam.

During that period the US could still have won the campaign quite easily if no restrictions had been placed on "acceptable targets". Instead a long list was made with targets that where allowed, targets that for the most part had limited or no real military value.

 

[KoshFan]

Well, I don't mean to turn this into a political thread, but let's say that the US could have done a lot more damage and scored military successes more easily if there hadn't been an acceptable target list. Whether or not we would have "won," I think, would still have been up to the Vietnamese.

But like I've said before: JMS and the folks doing the special effects were no military experts. I think the phrase "A little knowledge..." applies here very well.

 

[QMCO5]

I forgot to check on the writer. I think it does make a difference that DiTillo wrote the episode and not JMS, who is normally pretty good at getting military customs right. However, he made a couple of mistakes in the episode "All Alone in the Night." In that episode no one comes to attention when General Hague comes aboard B5 and Ivanova enters the elevator ahead of Hague, both incorrect. Yet on "A Distant Star" the entry guard snaps to attention and salutes CAPT Maynard as he leaves the station. As for the Garibaldi incident with General Franklin I wouldn't be surprised if Jerry Doyle just blew it on his own, since he so frequently has his hands in his pockets. Kind of like a tic.

QMCO5

 

[QMCO5]

Tactical nuclear weapons can be set to destroy a specific size target, such as a city block. Yes, there is a radiation problem, but not as much in the long run as one might think. Just remember that Hiroshima is a thriving city today. There are many environmental factors that affect the radiation threat.

Perhaps the most realistic suggestion offered in these responses is the reality of political decisions sometimes outweighing tactical considerations in seizing a military objective.

QMCO5

 

[Jan]

However, he made a couple of mistakes in the episode "All Alone in the Night." In that episode no one comes to attention when General Hague comes aboard B5 and Ivanova enters the elevator ahead of Hague, both incorrect.

This part may have hit the cutting room floor? According to the script:

INT. BABYLON 5 - CUSTOMS AREA

Sparsely populated, not a lot of folks around. Ivanova waits. Finally, we SEE GENERAL HAGUE. He comes forward, Ivanova approaches.

IVANOVA
General, welcome to Babylon 5.

GEN. HAGUE
Commander.

IVANOVA
I apologize for the lack of an honor guard, but we were given specific instructions by your office--

GEN. HAGUE
Yes, well, I'd rather not make a fuss. Never cared much for all the show. I was told Captain Sheridan would be here...?

Plus Sheridan told Ivanova earlier that it was a private visit. When's the elevator scene? It's not mentioned as they're leaving the customs area.

Jan

 

[QMCO5]

The fact that the visit was "private" is immaterial. Generals are always making site visits, sometimes to get a first-hand report from the site commander. When a General officer enters everyone snaps to attention. That is military custom. A General might "say" he doesn't want any fuss, but believe me, subordinates will render the proper respect. Sheridan does it right in GROPOS when General Franklin came aboard.

QMCO5

 

[Boxie]

Well guys... I liked it! Of course, I have no practical knowledge of military protocol, so some of things mentioned didn't bother me at all. Although, I was surprised to see the look on Sheridan's face, and his reply, to the General when met with the news he had to find beds for everyone. I would have assumed that required only a, "Yes, sir." response, reserving his "abba abba...but.." reply, and his doubt, for later.

And how about that Dodger!! What a little spitfire she was! I think she snuck( ) up on Mr. Garilbaldi...He liked her a lot. I think what stopped him was the prospect of messing up his life even more, and maybe inadvertently hers, with an ill-planned move.

Dodger said a lot of things to Michael in his quarters that clearly showed who she was and revealed much about the life she led. Some of her words haunted me when I saw she'd been killed. Did she hear the shot that took her out...?? I hope not...

I loved the bar fight because of what happened in the middle of it. Michael and Dodger nearly took a swing at each other! They had almost no time to react, but you could just see it kind of tickled them that they came that close! I liked that part so much; the rest of the fight is just a blur.

I also liked the General Franklin character. Paul Winfield was just an excellent actor. I think the stiffness of his dialog and posturing was intentional. Watch him. It almost appears that he's holding his breath, as if he's carrying the weight of this mission and his troops on his chest.

I think he knew what was coming...that it was a dicey mission, that the likelihood of heavy losses was great, and the only chance of savings some of those lives and meeting the objective was to never take his eye off the ball.

Long time a soldier, I think he knew he could ill-afford to mentally stray from his mission, or his men, to address personal relationships or make speeches. The rest would have to wait; he had a job to do.

I gave it an "A".

 

[Jacqui]

This episode is a favorite, but also gripes me in many ways. I won't even get into the military protocol debate. I'm daughter of Navy, was Navy briefly myself, and was married to Navy for 15+ years (first enlisted, then he was promoted to CWO, then full officer over the course of his career). The less said about those mistakes the better. But it is true. Darling Michael would not be standing around a superior officer with his hands in his pants!

One point, though. . .Garibaldi is a CWO--Chief Warrant Officer--in Earthforce. That is a commissioned rank, not a noncommissioned one. Someone refered to him as a noncom in a previous post. Currently, Warrants are usually helo pilots, 2-year degree nurses, etc. That's how my ex went from E6 to CWO. . .his ADN.

Anyway. . .

I'm of the "Garibaldi, you idiot!" camp. Don't take a girl to your room, smooching her madly, then drop her like a hot rock when you have this blinding flash of insight. That's the sort of thing that comes BEFORE you get to the grunting and grappling stage. Think with the OTHER head before you get within 25 feet of a bed, thanks! I've always liked the idea of a woman like Dodger for Garibaldi. Lise is a whining, useless, sack of codependent, temper-tantrum-throwing-in-dire-need-of-therapy (expletive deleted). That JMS had him end up with her totally yanks my chain. Michael is one of those powerful characters that compells people either to love him or hate him. I'm in the love him (truly, madly, desperately) category. But, truth be told, he's what I refer to as a "science project man." A real fixer-upper. You don't put two science projects together because it just won't work. Today or centuries into the future, humans are still humans. That's my rant for the day on that topic. No wonder Zack dubbed Daffy the "Egyptian God of Frustration." G totally frustrated me in that ep as well as "Day of the Dead." Being in love with (or just wanting to. . .ahem. . ."boff") men like him truly is all we need to know of hell.

All in all, Dodger was a great character and deserved a little more screen time. But, that's just me. LOL

Jacqui

 

[crazyhorse]

Garibaldi,what you playing at man.First bit of action to come your way in years and you decide to go all moral.Not on and not believable.
The squadies behaved like squadies,shallow and out for cheap laughs.
As for the brawl it is in my opinion impossible to do these things realisticly as in real life they are pretty nasty and it would never be allowed on a programme with this sort of audience.A 18 rating would be needed for any real brawl.This is why you don't see any blood.
They all die,I actually like that.One of the differances of B5 compared to other series was the fact that people are just killed off.No last minute rescues or escapes just dead.Adds the realism that war is no game.
I also liked the fact that earth was using its military might once again.Was this because of shadow influence or was the EA thinking that they had to flex their muscles.
Once again,Garibaldi you are either gay or have been castrated.Single men never say no to a bit of no strings attached fun.
Well I don't anyway.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Once again,Garibaldi you are either gay or have been castrated.Single men never say no to a bit of no strings attached fun.
Well I don't anyway.

Well Jerry Doyle's pregnant wife was watching. He did not ditch Andrea Thompson until after the birth.

 

[vacantlook]

I also liked the fact that earth was using its military might once again.Was this because of shadow influence or was the EA thinking that they had to flex their muscles.

I think the planet they were doing the thing on was of some sort of transportationally strategic importance.

 

[KoshFan]

Yeah, but the background was never really made clear.

It's kind of like Grenada, only bloodier.

 

[Springer]

I think with the Narn and Centauri duking it out, Earth wanted to strengthen their position and take advantage of whatever the outcome of the war was going to be. I don't think they were particularly interested in the civil war on that planet, they just wanted it for strategic purposes. In fact, doesn't General Franklin say something like that during the episode?

And I'd take Lise over Dodger any day of the week.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

And I'd take Lise over Dodger any day of the week.

Yeah, but how about nights of the weekend?