EpDis: GROPOS

[Lousy_Dodgers]

First off, I agree with the idea that it is far more efficient to simply bombard something from orbit. I suspect that planetary bombardment in any form might be frowned upon though. We already know that treaties exist surrounding the use of mass drivers. At the very least, planetary bombardment--even just using regular beam weapons as the Narn and Drazi used in their assault on Centauri Prime--might bring interstellar condemnation.

In a larger sense, that is always something that has bugged me about alien invasion movies. These supposeldy intelligent beings decide to leave the relative safety of space to land on a planet and enable the humans to have a chance to hurt them.

I guess one argument might be that either Earth or the government in question wanted to capture the rebel leaders...or at least keep their bodies intact. If you obliterate the base from orbit, it is harder to show conclusive proof that you managed to eliminate the leaders of the rebellion. I am sure the government then took those bodies and distributed images of them to their news outlets to show the public that the resistance had been crushed.

However, even if this is the case, the tactics employed were still kind of stupid. I can understand wanting to send in ground forces to capture any leaders but why did the helicopter-like craft have to be right on top of the base when engaging its defenses? Even without planetary bombardment, they could have launched missiles at some of the gun emplacements from a hundred miles away or more.

 

[Chilli]

Two points on the episode after having watched it earlier today:

* Is Larry DiTillio some kind of monk? Has he actually ever *met* a man?? Though I'm the least qualified person in the universe to speak of how to deal with women, with my immense crap-with-the-ladies aura, which I by now cannot put down to anything but voodoo or some shit ... oh boy.

GKE is completely right, Garibaldi is beyond dork here. Not wanting to shag her? Okay, also if his reasons seem silly to us. But only thinking of that after having dragged her to his quarters? Garibaldi would never be that much of a loser.

* JMS speaking on this episode:

As for GROPOS, that one episode was so far over budget that I had to write 2 smaller ones to make up for it, and the many people you saw were really just one small group that took forever to digitally composite into looking like a much bigger group.

Aside from it being an awful waste on GROPOS, I'm trying to figure out which ones these would be. I would have thought Hunter, Prey and There all the Honor Lies. As the latter is a Peter David episode though, that doesn't quite seem right. Comes The Inquisitor?

 

[Skander]

GROPOS is a B-episode to me. I liked it for the most part. Cheesy bar fight scenes and all.

I'm on the "black dude is cool" bandwagon.

I'm also in the "don't know enough of military protocol to get really peeved at various inconsistencies" crowd. Though reading this now, it sort of fits with Garibaldi's character to do the hand-in-pockets bit on purpose.

Dodger was feisty and looked like she'd be an animal under the sheets (guess Garibaldi will never know). Twice rejecting her!! Doesn't make much sense that he rejected her and makes even less sense that they brought her back for "Day of the Dead". The man rejected her when Lise was out of the picture, now that he's practically married he'll go for it, c'mon. Instead have Talia come back and really cause a dilemma for Garibaldi (and Doyle in real life). Gen. Franklin was an OK character being played by a good actor.

For having nothing to do with the main arc, the episode held up pretty well. As far as blowing the budget out of the water; if its any consolation to JMS, I could tell they pulled out all the stops to make this episode. From the CGI invasion, to the landing of all the troops on B5. Its one of those episodes I point to and go see how much better B5 is than all the other shows at giving your imagination a break and actually SHOWING you its universe.

 

[Elipsis]

I B'd this one as well. The "walking stereotypes" as someone correctly put it cracked me up. (Sgt. Plug, I believe the guy's name was.)

The ending was pretty strong imo, and dark enough that it is another episode that seperates B5 from many of the "optimistic" sci-fi shows.

 

[maneth]

I don't know military protocol enough to be bothered by the glitches there, but we must remember that in spite of his position, Garibaldi has always been an anti-authority guy. He didn't like General Franklin stamping in and giving orders where he would've accepted them from Sheridan.

I never really saw the point why the GROPOS couldn't be quartered in their ships. Why did they have to invade B5? Sure, the guys could use some shore leave, but let them visit the station for a few hours each, and not all at the same time. I suspect that was only because they wanted to make things chaotic on station, and for Dodger to hook up with Garibaldi.

I found Garibaldi's refusal of Dodger at that stage a bit weird, but surely not all guys are ruled by their gonads? Garibaldi loved Lise, and he only realized how much when he found out she was married.

 

[Skander]

I just re-watched this episode this weekend and am thinking more that it was Talia that hung over him, not Lise. He mentions how news of Lise really messed him up, but then he says ". . . then there's this lady that I shouldn't have a shot in hell with . . ." and continues " . . . maybe its with this other lady, maybe its with you, but for once in my life I want to slow down and think . . ."

The poor guy doesn't know it, but Talia has already made her decision on who she wants to be with at the end of "A Race Through Dark Places" when she goes into Ivanova's quarters late and calls her ". . . the only person on the station she could think of."

I still think Garibaldi should've thought of all that Lise/Talia stuff before laying the girl down on his bed and then stopping--ya just don't tease like that.

 

[hypatia]

I never really saw the point why the GROPOS couldn't be quartered in their ships. Why did they have to invade B5? Sure, the guys could use some shore leave, but let them visit the station for a few hours each, and not all at the same time. I suspect that was only because they wanted to make things chaotic on station, and for Dodger to hook up with Garibaldi.

I assume it might be no small matter trying to round up soldiers who've been given just three hours of shore leave.

I just assumed shore leave was always done this way: a minimal crew stays behind, while most of the crew take off.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

I don't know military protocol enough to be bothered by the glitches there, but we must remember that in spite of his position, Garibaldi has always been an anti-authority guy. He didn't like General Franklin stamping in and giving orders where he would've accepted them from Sheridan.

Garibaldi is a policeman not a soldier so generals are not authorised to give him and his men orders. Sheridan may be a military officer but he is also governor of Babylon 5. It is the post of Governor that can give orders to Garibaldi.

Having said that refusing a request for a man able to give orders to you boss is inadvisable.

 

[maneth]

True. I think his point was more that Gen. Franklin wasn't his direct superior. He'd certainly consider a request, but he wouldn't accept a military-style order. Given the way Franklin ran his home like a boot camp when he was there, he might've had some trouble distinguishing between civilian and military relationships. The rules are very different.

 

[Sindatur]

I'm not sure his "rejection" of Dodger in this episode was neccessarily due to feelings for any woman in particular. I got the sense it was just a general, "I make impulsive decisions all the time and screw things up". He's been sober and had a position of authority for some time, and his life is on the road to recovery, more than it ever has been. I think Dodger just happened to be the point in his life he finally decided to think about and analyze a decision before making it, to ensure he was making the right decision and didn't damage the possible future. Admittedly, he should've come to this decision earlier. If not before taking her to his cabin, at least before the clothes started coming off.

 

[KoshFan]

As I understand it, the Security/EarthForce relationship was a little awkward; some of Security were EarthForce personnel and some weren't. But yes, Sheridan was still in charge, even if Franklin outranked him.

 

[Cell]

Garibaldi is a policeman not a soldier so generals are not authorised to give him and his men orders. Sheridan may be a military officer but he is also governor of Babylon 5. It is the post of Governor that can give orders to Garibaldi.

Having said that refusing a request for a man able to give orders to you boss is inadvisable.

Having just watched this episode, Garibaldi is an officer in EarthForce, if a General gives him an order he will follow it and they are well within their right to do so. Look back at the episode Eyes, he has to answer to the orders given to him by a Colonel because Garibaldi falls into the military chain of command and in turn his security officers will do whatever he tells them to do and he will tell them to do whatever a higher ranking officer tells him to tell them to do.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

On Babylon 5 Garibaldi does nor wear a soldier's uniform. He wears a security uniform.
It is after Eyes that Garibaldi determined his chain of command.

 

[KoshFan]

Except Garibaldi's uniform is distinctly different from the rest of B5 Security: it has the leather panel, and the EA insignia.

But every time we stick our head into this "B5 ranks/chain of command" stuff, we end up arguing, because it's not perfectly internally consistent and it doesn't match any real comparable system we have today.

 

[Kyehlar]

Garibaldi is a Non-Commissioned Officer with the rank of 'Chief Warrant Officer'. According to what I'm reading, the Warrant Officer has all the authority and responsibilities of a commissioned officer, but restricted to a single speciality or discipline. In this case, Security. Warrant officers are placed in authority over enlisted personnel, but answerable to senior officers. It would explain why his uniform is a variant of the security grey.

On the topic of the episode itself though, I just got done watching this a little while ago, and I loved it. I loved the camraderie that formed between Keffer and the two GROPOS, and felt the sorrow when they found out their fates at the end of the episode. I can't wait for 'Day of the Dead' in Season 5 now.

 

[vacantlook]

Keffer standing there at the end reacting to the casualty list was probably the character's most dramatic moment in the entire show, let alone in the episode.

 

[Cell]

On Babylon 5 Garibaldi does nor wear a soldier's uniform. He wears a security uniform.
It is after Eyes that Garibaldi determined his chain of command.

He wears the uniform of an EF Officer, as the chief warrant officer he is a part of the chain of command. While B5's chain of command may be murky, it is never in question that Garibaldi is an officer in EF and that he is answerable to all the same military protocol as any other officer.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Cell loop up what an NCO is.

 

[Cell]

I know exactly what an NCO is, and based on the fact that for the most part EF appears to operate under the same ranks as the present day US Armed Forces, Garibaldi would actually be a commissioned officer since he is the Chief Warrant Officer on B5. In the US Armed Forces a chief warrant officer, and that is what Garibaldi is, isn't a non-commissioned officer but rather a commissioned officer. Even if Garibaldi were a NCO, he would still be within the chain of command and therefore wouldn't be a civilian in any way. He would be answerable to any superiors in rank, and when told to be at ease, he certainly wouldn't be putting his hands in his pockets. He would also follow all orders from superior officers, he does this in Eyes, and he does this all the time when he takes orders from Ivanova, Sheridan and Sinclair. If any other officer of a superior rank were on station he would also take orders from them, because that is what NCO's or CO's do.

 

[G'Kar]

Overall the episode is average so I give it a B, but I always liked the ending of this episode for some reason. I guess it's just the thought that the person you could be sitting next to one minute can be dead the next day.