EpDis: Into The Fire

[crazyhorse]

I would never of believed that the Shadows would walk away so easily.

Except that Lorien told them then it was time to go. Lorien is the being whom the Shadows thought so highly off so much that they kept coming back to Z'ha'dum all the time.

So why the hell did he just not tell them to stop being silly buggers and wiping people out.
My point was(I think)that the Shadows and Vorlons behaved like spoiled kids who had misused their toys.Expected a little more from them than "ok,we've been told off,we'll go and play nicely somewhere else".

 

[hypatia]

I've wondered that, too. Why was Lorien just hanging out underground when apparantly all it took was his company for the shadows and vorlons to happily go skipping off beyond the rim.

I suppose the Vorlons and the Shadows had to learn first that these younger races weren't going to play their game anymore. Lorien alone wasn't enough to convince them to take off and leave us alone, the realization that they had no constructive purpose anymore was.

That and having "Daddy" come and say "it's alright, I'll go with you".

 

[PillowRock]

I suppose the Vorlons and the Shadows had to learn first that these younger races weren't going to play their game anymore. Lorien alone wasn't enough to convince them to take off and leave us alone, the realization that they had no constructive purpose anymore was.

There is also the question of whether Lorien was waiting for evidence that the younger races were ready to be left alone.

It's one thing for him tto know that the babysitters have started worrying more about their methodology debate among themselves than they are about doing their jobs as well as they might. It's something else for him to be convinced that no supervision at all is better than what they have now.

Didn't Lorien make a comment to Sheridan (when he was still dead on Z'ha'dum) about being the first to make it "this far".

Maybe the Vorlons and Shadows would have left earlier if Lorien had gotten their attention sufficiently vigorously and told them to. But maybe *he* was waiting to do that until the younger races had demonstrated to his satisfaction that they didn't need their older babysitters any more.


Naturally, we are well out into the realm of speculation here ...... not reasoning supported by a whole lot of hard evidence.

 

[hypatia]

Oh, that makes sense, though. No, that's a great explanation, Pillowrock.

 

[crazyhorse]

He waited long enough.What's the worse the younger races could of got up to without the older races?Have a few wars,we know that happened even down to the extent of the Dilgar being exterminated.Where were the older races then with their so called guiding hand?As I see it they did nothing to really help any of the younger races at all apart from modifying them for there own purposes.The only guidance given was to counteract each others machinations.In the end the older races come across as more childlike than the younger races.

 

[vacantlook]

Does anybody really think that *every* single ship in the galaxy (from either the Shadows or the Vorlons) was at that battle?

No, especially considering that we were actually shown that they weren't, i.e. the Vorlon fleet that was sent to Centauri Prime that the Vorlons recalled when their fleet at Coriana got smooshed. It's not a far step to realizing there are plenty of other ships elsewhere in the galaxy.

Didn't Lorien make a comment to Sheridan (when he was still dead on Z'ha'dum) about being the first to make it "this far".

Yup, he did indeed tell Sheridan that he was the first one to make it that far.

 

[KoshFan]

PillowRock's explanation for why Lorien waited as long as he did is, I think, spot on.

Another tidbit: someone once pointed out that the real pivotal moment came when the Shadows fired their missile at Sheridan's White Star and the Drazi ship intercepted it. When the Vorlons and the Shadows realized that the younger races were no longer willing to die for them, but instead for each other, they realized that playing their game would be a lot harder now. Plus there's Lorien telling them it's time to go... and let's not forget the other First Ones all standing around, tapping their feet impatiently.

 

[puzzle]

That was also one of my pet peeves about situational consistency.

A missile whose counterparts seemed quite capable of burrowing deep into a planet, through kilometers of quite hard rock... had trouble leaving a smoking hole into a Drazi ship, and continuing on its course unaffected.

The answer of course, might be that the missiles might require a program to tell them when to slip through an obstacle, and who instructed the missile to fire either forgot or didn't bother to configure it.

 

[KoshFan]

Most likely, it was configured properly... for killing a ship.

 

[Elipsis]

Heavily philosophical, I am always torn between wanting to see this end in explosions or reason. I suppose we get our explosions with the earth conflict. I would've liked to have seen this as a 2-parter, but after reading the lurker's guide, I've got to agree that more shooting and space battles wouldn't have changed the way it had to end. Sheridan himself said that they could not win that battle, and to have them do so would have been unnatural given the strength of the first ones.

The story always gets me wondering why the Vorlons went nuts when they did. Perhaps it was the death of Kosh, but I feel like the reasons as to why the Vorlons and Shadows don't attack each other is essentially valid.

It goes beyond wanting to leave the other side alive so they can see that you are right. To erase the other side would be to admit defeat. It would have meant admitting that the idea of evolution through chaos was more attractive to the younger races, and thus must be destroyed. If the Shadow idea was truly weaker than the Vorlon idea, it would fall on its own without Vorlon intervention. It's analogous to wanting to be the fastest runner in the world. Rather than training to be the fastest, you simply kill everyone who runs faster than you. Of course, doing so wouldn't really make you any faster, you'd simply be the fastest person that anyone else knows about. Ok, that was a silly analogy... but the point is that for one race to eliminate the other would have been admitting idealogical inferiority. So IMO it goes a little bit deeper than leaving the other side around just so they see you succeed.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Heavily philosophical, I am always torn between wanting to see this end in explosions or reason. I suppose we get our explosions with the earth conflict. I would've liked to have seen this as a 2-parter, but after reading the lurker's guide, I've got to agree that more shooting and space battles wouldn't have changed the way it had to end. Sheridan himself said that they could not win that battle, and to have them do so would have been unnatural given the strength of the first ones.

Well, I disagree, I think it easily could have ended in defeat for both the Shadows and the Vorlons. When I saw B5 the first time, Sheridan's strategy seemed obvious to me -- he was trying to incite a direct conflict between the Shadows and the Vorlons, in hopes that they would nearly wipe each other out. At that point, his forces, including the other First Ones, would try to take out the few weakened survivors. That might have worked.

So, I was surprised, and perhaps a little let down, that we didn't see an epic space battle. But, I like surprises, and liked the way JMS did handle it.

 

[vacantlook]

The story always gets me wondering why the Vorlons went nuts when they did. Perhaps it was the death of Kosh....

Indeed it was. jms has said that Kosh worried about what Ulkesh and the other Vorlons would do if Kosh's moderating voice was absent. We got that answer in that the Vorlons decided to ride around the galaxy and blow up planets.

 

[mattikake]

I think the only thing missing from this episode, was a private scene where Lorien turns to the Shadows and the Vorlons and says something like "Yep, that worked perfectly. We made them understand for themselves, by themselves. Right, on to the next Galaxy...!"

I mean, c'mon. 2 races who are billions of years more advanced that us who don't have the wisdom and presence of mind bot to get dragged into an arguement? That makes them look pretty dum, but I guess you have to appeal to the audience! (In that not that the audience is dum but that it has to relate to humans, as I'm sure we couldn't comprehend an intelligence billions of years more advance than our own. In fact we'd probably even be unaware of their existence, they would be so much 'higher'. Whatever, still cool though.)

 

[Kaz]

I loved it when the Vorlons and the Shadows realised that the other races wouldn't fight for them anymore. Great story arc tie-up.

 

[Estelyn]

Very little of this episode takes place on Babylon 5 - we see Centauri Prime and the White Stars, for the most part.

I too like the way JMS solved the situation. There could be no military victory, so he chose a moral one. It reminds me very much of The Lord of the Rings: there too the powers of darkness were too many to defeat in battle. The conflict could only be won by destroying the the source of the enemy's power.

And like that victory, it does not end the story - there's more to come. B5's "Scouring of the Shire" will still have to take place. What has gone before was preparation for that, and like Gandalf, Lorien is no longer there to help. The characters have grown up.

I was moved to see Londo's attempts to save his planet, down to asking Vir to kill him, since he was the last one there to be influenced by the Shadows. Self-sacrifice is an important step on the way to redemption.

And yes, it was a very amusing touch to see that Vir is the one person who got what he wanted, just as he told Morden long ago!

 

[Lennier's Tears]

Ah, finally I can take a breath again. All that tension-building comes to a head in this one, and it's pretty glorious.

The space battles in this look great, even after 20 years. There's a few new gorgeous nebulae as backgrounds, too. And I just love how the White Stars move.

But this is mostly not about space battles ... I am pleased that the story didn't have the younger races win an actual firefight against either the Shadows or Vorlons, let alone both. Not even a Sheridan trick could have gotten them a victory. Well, I suppose it was a Sheridan trick that .. did the trick in the end, but not in battle. And that is as it should be.

I enjoy the symbolism in the way the Vorlons and Shadows communicate in this one. That might mean it's a bit over the top, because I can be quite thick in picking up on metaphors and such. On the other hand, it might just mean I've watched this many, many times

I think this story, and this outcome makes sense. If you have a universe (or a galaxy, although I get the impression that the two are sometimes used interchangeably on this show, presumably to express that that is the extent of their known universe?) in which older races shepherd younger races until they can take care of themselves, and then move away, then clearly this is that time for the Vorlons and Shadows. I'm not so sure about the other First Ones. But if, of all peoples, the Drazi (purple ... green!) are falling on their swords for the cause, clearly the time has come. The younger races are ready.

I enjoy that conversation between Lorien and Ivanova, where they talk about the perceptions of an immortal being versus those of a mortal, and he tells her only those with a short lifespan can imagine love is eternal, and she should embrace this remarkable illusion, for it might be the greatest gift her race has ever received. I don't think she believes him.

The Centauri Prime bit is great, of course. We all love to see Morden lose his car salesman cool, and get his ... And Vir doing the little wave. He so deserved that. Vir, I mean, although one could say the same about Morden.

And now the real work must begin ...

 

[Springer]

I enjoy that conversation between Lorien and Ivanova, where they talk about the perceptions of an immortal being versus those of a mortal, and he tells her only those with a short lifespan can imagine love is eternal, and she should embrace this remarkable illusion, for it might be the greatest gift her race has ever received. I don't think she believes him.
.

I found it interesting that there was a hint of regret in Lorien's voice when he was telling Ivanova this?

 

[Lennier's Tears]

Yea, I think you are right, I also get that impression. It's hard to imagine what one would be thinking if one had lived millions (billions?) of years, but it seems to me that it would make sense for one so old to be perhaps a tad melancholy. Everyone he used to know is long, long gone. On the other hand, perhaps all those years alone would get you really used to this idea, and you wouldn't care at all? Personally, I like the idea of the melancholy First One

 

[Springer]

The Pillars of Creation! Although of course nebulae wouldn't really look like that up close. The Hubble images are false colour, in reality all these colourful nebulae would look mainly red from hydrogen emission. Plus they'd appear quite diffuse up close. But it is cool that they used the Hubble images as backgrounds.

Love the First Ones ships. I've been lucky that I've been able to buy some of the models of the First Ones ships that were originally made for the Babylon 5 Wars strategy game.

I'm in two minds about this episode. Of this 6 episode arc, I think this episode is the weakest in terms of drama. Don't get me wrong, I love the story, the idea of the ancient beings leaving the Galaxy and the younger races stepping up to the plate is awesome. Its just that it ends up being talking heads and I don't find the visuals used particularly interesting - black backgrounds and spotlights, a woman in a block of ice and the Shadows masquerading as various B5 characters. I feel JMS should have just let his imagination run wild here, it almost feels like he's playing it safe and it feels a bit dull. Sheridan lectures his way to a victory, I think it would have been better for the viewer if he could have got his point across by actions somehow, rather than static talking.

I should mention that the Centauri scenes are excellent. Morden's haircut looks rubbish though! Maybe it's a 90s fashion.

I do really like the ending, the shot of B5 outside of the window, getting closer. There's a Minbari ship on patrol - I did wonder if any ships had stayed behind to protect the station in case President Clark's forces took advantage and tried to take the station. Thinking about it, that would have been a hell of a shock if Sheridan had arrived back to find that!

Other little things: I think moving the Lorien/Ivanova scene from The Long Night into this episode hampered the flow of the episode. For one, Ivanova wouldn't just be hanging around, she'd be busting a gut to meet up with the fleet. There has also obviously been a line added to Ivanova's narration at the beginning where she talks about going back to B5 - the audio sounds different. And the scene with Delenn telling Ivanova to "haul ass" seems needless.

When Sheridan and Delenn are talking to the Vorlons and Shadows, there's a weird bit of editing - Sheridan's talking, and there is music in the background, then suddenly it cuts to Delenn and the music just stops suddenly.

Why would the Shadow cloud cause everything to get cold? Are the White Star's jump engines really solar powered?

The shot of the Shadow ships leaving looks like the shot of their ships arriving, just run in reverse.

The end of an era, and the dawn of a new age.

 

[Lennier's Tears]

I never could figure out why it gets so cold when the Shadows move in. Good question.

I agree about that moved Ivanova/Lorien scene. She looks like she's just casually packing her bags, it doesn't really fit. But I can see why they wanted to keep that scene even if they couldn't fit it in its proper place. As I said upthread, I do enjoy that conversation

LOL at Morden's 90s haircut. He's not the most stylish of the B5 characters ... Even when not shedding skin flakes all over the place.