Chilli
High Treason Prevention Officer
Er .. no.
Franklin dated Number One, while Number One sent Marcus off to "stand guard" - to be out of the way.
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EpDis: Learning Curve
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
Er .. no.
Franklin dated Number One, while Number One sent Marcus off to "stand guard" - to be out of the way.
Galahad
Regular
That's what makes the scene so funny. Marcus is completely aware of what she's up to. I keep having to wind back every time Marcus turns round with the "50 credits" jibe, it just cracks me up
wish i could find it on youtube..
Cell
Regular
I'm in the process of watching through all of B5/Crusade/LOTR yet again, and I just came upon this episode. Man oh man, I had forgotten just how bad this episode makes the Rangers, the IA and maybe even JMS out to be. This whole idea of circumventing the local authorities, the law, and justice for the idea of revenge through terror is quite sad indeed.
The Rangers are supposed to be a peace keeping force, the guardians of the light in the galaxy that is the IA. But in this episode they go above the law to inflict revenge and terror upon a man, and they crack jokes as if their actions are quite cavalier while partaking in their atrocious actions. Now, sure, the man was not a good man and he had beaten the Ranger nearly to death. However what should separate the Rangers from your common thug or fascist zealot is their ability to enforce the peace through the law and the true tenets of justice. Instead they do the exact opposite and take on the persona of Nazi Germany's SS in the process. This episode doesn't make the Rangers honorable or endearing in any way, instead it paints them as terror mongers, willing to exact their own idea of revenge upon the populace in whatever manner they see fit. Fairness doesn't matter, the law doesn't matter, justice doesn't matter, due process doesn't matter, and in the end because they are willing to do this the Rangers lose a lot in my eyes.
This takes us to Delenn, who not only goes along with the Mora'Dum, but pulls rank to make sure it is enforced. Are we really supposed to believe that a character that has spent the better part of the last 10 years doing everything in her power to show people the mistake of enacting revenge would now do the same? This is the same character that shouted for revenge upon the death of Dukhat and then realized the error of her ways and cried out that the needless death and seeking of revenge stop. Despite building that very important facet into her character here we have her going against all of that and seeking for revenge right away and hiding behind laws and tradition to make sure that revenge is meted out.
JMS on the other hand tries to hide behind the message he has put forth with the clumsy Garibaldi scene in the station house with Zack at the end of the show. His whole "The Minbari do this and then this and then this" is a very vein attempt at somehow justifying their actions throughout the episode. I fully believe in the SS comparison that I put forth earlier, and one must wonder if this is how JMS views the ultimate police force as actually working? Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge JMS fan, but I can't help but balk at his apparent idea of how the Rangers should work, and honor and justice. If it had been one or two Rangers that think this way then that I could buy, beings will be beings after all, but to have it built in as a group standard and to have it presented as good thing is not something I can get behind. All this episode did was paint the Rangers, Delenn, and the IA in a bad light and it's quite shocking in how bad of a light it put them in.
The Rangers are supposed to be a peace keeping force, the guardians of the light in the galaxy that is the IA. But in this episode they go above the law to inflict revenge and terror upon a man, and they crack jokes as if their actions are quite cavalier while partaking in their atrocious actions. Now, sure, the man was not a good man and he had beaten the Ranger nearly to death. However what should separate the Rangers from your common thug or fascist zealot is their ability to enforce the peace through the law and the true tenets of justice. Instead they do the exact opposite and take on the persona of Nazi Germany's SS in the process. This episode doesn't make the Rangers honorable or endearing in any way, instead it paints them as terror mongers, willing to exact their own idea of revenge upon the populace in whatever manner they see fit. Fairness doesn't matter, the law doesn't matter, justice doesn't matter, due process doesn't matter, and in the end because they are willing to do this the Rangers lose a lot in my eyes.
This takes us to Delenn, who not only goes along with the Mora'Dum, but pulls rank to make sure it is enforced. Are we really supposed to believe that a character that has spent the better part of the last 10 years doing everything in her power to show people the mistake of enacting revenge would now do the same? This is the same character that shouted for revenge upon the death of Dukhat and then realized the error of her ways and cried out that the needless death and seeking of revenge stop. Despite building that very important facet into her character here we have her going against all of that and seeking for revenge right away and hiding behind laws and tradition to make sure that revenge is meted out.
JMS on the other hand tries to hide behind the message he has put forth with the clumsy Garibaldi scene in the station house with Zack at the end of the show. His whole "The Minbari do this and then this and then this" is a very vein attempt at somehow justifying their actions throughout the episode. I fully believe in the SS comparison that I put forth earlier, and one must wonder if this is how JMS views the ultimate police force as actually working? Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge JMS fan, but I can't help but balk at his apparent idea of how the Rangers should work, and honor and justice. If it had been one or two Rangers that think this way then that I could buy, beings will be beings after all, but to have it built in as a group standard and to have it presented as good thing is not something I can get behind. All this episode did was paint the Rangers, Delenn, and the IA in a bad light and it's quite shocking in how bad of a light it put them in.
Estelyn
Regular
A lot has been said about the questionable aspects of this episode, and I must admit to being of two minds about it. Despite the fact that administration of justice should not take the form used by the Rangers, there's something in me that cheers when the bully is proven to be a coward when faced with a courageous opponent alone.
I do enjoy the bantering conversations between the two senior officers - it's nice to see members of two different castes aware of their differences but not battling each other. And it's fun to see the young Ranger (Tannier?) smile over that - we so seldom see Minbari smiling.
The contrast between Sheridan, whose military position was strongly influenced by his political opinions, and Lochley, who adheres strictly to the chain of command, is clearly defined without being judged. Is one position more meritorious than the other? I can understand Sheridan better, but then I'd not like to be part of a military structure.
I do like Delenn's clarity in seeing the possibilities for a purpose for Pak'ma'ra Rangers.
There is a good deal of psychological wisdom in facing one's terror/fear as soon as possible, aside from the method used here. And the philosophical question raised, ln the worth of death with or without reason or meaning, is an interesting one.
One additional detail - we are getting a hint of Lennier's future actions in the report of his overactivity in training. I do like it when clues are dropped over a period of time, then solved later on!
No, this episode isn't a favourite of mine, but still worth watching.
I do enjoy the bantering conversations between the two senior officers - it's nice to see members of two different castes aware of their differences but not battling each other. And it's fun to see the young Ranger (Tannier?) smile over that - we so seldom see Minbari smiling.
The contrast between Sheridan, whose military position was strongly influenced by his political opinions, and Lochley, who adheres strictly to the chain of command, is clearly defined without being judged. Is one position more meritorious than the other? I can understand Sheridan better, but then I'd not like to be part of a military structure.
I do like Delenn's clarity in seeing the possibilities for a purpose for Pak'ma'ra Rangers.
There is a good deal of psychological wisdom in facing one's terror/fear as soon as possible, aside from the method used here. And the philosophical question raised, ln the worth of death with or without reason or meaning, is an interesting one.
One additional detail - we are getting a hint of Lennier's future actions in the report of his overactivity in training. I do like it when clues are dropped over a period of time, then solved later on!
No, this episode isn't a favourite of mine, but still worth watching.
Lennier's Tears
Regular
Ehh, it's not a great episode, but it's OK ... It has some obvious problems, but it's entertaining enough.
I'm a big fan of Puzzle's huge post on the first page of this thread
That's a pretty detailed analysis of the legalities involved with the Ranger storyline here. I agree with the people who said that it seems out of place for Delenn to override station command/security so that one Ranger trainee can experience the "terror" part of his training. It makes perfect sense for the Minbari to have such a thing in their training, because, well, they're Minbari, and everything is full of ritual. But, even Delenn expresses in this very episode the sentiment that Rangers are no longer just Minbari, and perhaps the training should be adjusted to better accommodate other races. Still, we're going to take over your station here for a second so this one guy can face his terror.
The actual execution of that part is entertaining enough for me. I enjoy the back and forth between the Ranger teachers.
Something I thought was interesting, and which I never really thought about before: All the Ranger trainees we see in this episode are wearing Ranger pins. Does that mean that one becomes a Ranger as soon as one is accepted to Ranger training? There is no "graduation" ?
About that scene where Garibaldi and Lochley get into it in the mess hall: I think it makes sense for Garibaldi to be so distrustful. That's entirely in character. It also fits with the general Babylon 5 feel that there's no black and white in their disagreement. I do find their frequent arguing a bit annoying. I don't get why so many people applaud when Lochley gives her speech and walks out. THEY all broke away from Earth. I don't see any of them back in the Earth Force uniform. She just said that the people who broke away from Earth sacrificed either loyalty, duty, or honor. Why would you applaud someone saying that about you?
I'm not a fan of the "Sheridan and Lochley had a previous relationship" story, which is still only hinted at here. And how did this not come up before in any conversations between Sheridan and Delenn? Did they never discuss why Sheridan picked Lochley for the B5 command?
I'm a big fan of Puzzle's huge post on the first page of this thread
That's a pretty detailed analysis of the legalities involved with the Ranger storyline here. I agree with the people who said that it seems out of place for Delenn to override station command/security so that one Ranger trainee can experience the "terror" part of his training. It makes perfect sense for the Minbari to have such a thing in their training, because, well, they're Minbari, and everything is full of ritual. But, even Delenn expresses in this very episode the sentiment that Rangers are no longer just Minbari, and perhaps the training should be adjusted to better accommodate other races. Still, we're going to take over your station here for a second so this one guy can face his terror. The actual execution of that part is entertaining enough for me. I enjoy the back and forth between the Ranger teachers.
Something I thought was interesting, and which I never really thought about before: All the Ranger trainees we see in this episode are wearing Ranger pins. Does that mean that one becomes a Ranger as soon as one is accepted to Ranger training? There is no "graduation" ?
About that scene where Garibaldi and Lochley get into it in the mess hall: I think it makes sense for Garibaldi to be so distrustful. That's entirely in character. It also fits with the general Babylon 5 feel that there's no black and white in their disagreement. I do find their frequent arguing a bit annoying. I don't get why so many people applaud when Lochley gives her speech and walks out. THEY all broke away from Earth. I don't see any of them back in the Earth Force uniform. She just said that the people who broke away from Earth sacrificed either loyalty, duty, or honor. Why would you applaud someone saying that about you?
I'm not a fan of the "Sheridan and Lochley had a previous relationship" story, which is still only hinted at here. And how did this not come up before in any conversations between Sheridan and Delenn? Did they never discuss why Sheridan picked Lochley for the B5 command?
Talvitar
Member
I felt slightly nauseated by the applause. Really, people?? Just because a speech is delivered in a authoritarian manner, doesn't mean you have to applaud to it, even if it is from your captain. I find it increasingly difficult to like Lochley - and I've already watched the next episode where she acts in a reasonable way (reasonable = approved by me
). Yeah, I could never be part of military if being like Lochley were the ideal. "Just following orders"... well, current events and history show plenty of atrocities made by or approved in silence by people who were "just following orders" by whatever passed for legitimate government at the time.The whole terror-Ranger thing didn't bother me at all. Reading your thoughtful analyses makes me ashamed that I completely missed the fact that I probably *should* have been bothered by it
However, I've always thought that Rangers are a law to themselves. They certainly have no reason to defer to the human laws in particular? Common courtesy, yes, but Rangers is not a human organization by origin. What did Delenn say back in some episode where they were declaring the invitation to join the new Alliance? When the White Stars were flying over the negotiation building I kind of remember something to the effect that Rangers are not in any one race's beck and call, they are independent.Ok, I get that they shouldn't go on a revenge rampage on B5 but then, it was not about that, was it? It was about facing your terror - and the terror just so happened that it was a person, not fire, or spiders...
About Sheridan and Lochley. The whole marriage thing was more amusing than anything else but I'm thinking, why was it necessary? Was there really no other way to highlight the fact that Sheridan was able to trust her implicitly?
Karajorma
Regular
Lochley's point is that she wouldn't have followed illegal orders but she also wouldn't fire on EA ships. Sheridan fought a war against his own home planet. Now while the captains of those ships might have been war criminals, it's pretty unlikely that everyone on every ship was one of Clarke's people. Whichever way you look at it, Sheridan definitely killed a lot of people who weren't bad people.
Lochley is in favour of passive resistence. She simply wouldn't do anything illegal. If she'd been sent up against B5 in season 3 she'd have ignored the orders to attack but she also wouldn't have helped B5 against the other destroyers. Her argument is to be more like Ghandhi's style of protest. Passive resistence. Notice that she doesn't say if she did take a stand. For all we know she did get an illegal order and spent the last year demoted to the back end of nowhere or in jail.
The irony is that her way is actually better (which is probably why she got applauded by a few of the people listening). Had the entire EA military followed her way rather than picking sides, Clarke would have been kicked out of power without the need for EA personnel killing each other. It's also far more idealistic and less likely to succeed than Sheridan's way. We all see Sheridan as the hero because it worked out for him, but remember that Sheridan took a long time before being willing to go up against Earth for many of the same reasons that Lockley didn't want to.
So once again you see that thing B5 does so wonderfully, shades of grey instead of black and white. Both Lochley and Sheridan did the wrong and the right thing.
Lochley is in favour of passive resistence. She simply wouldn't do anything illegal. If she'd been sent up against B5 in season 3 she'd have ignored the orders to attack but she also wouldn't have helped B5 against the other destroyers. Her argument is to be more like Ghandhi's style of protest. Passive resistence. Notice that she doesn't say if she did take a stand. For all we know she did get an illegal order and spent the last year demoted to the back end of nowhere or in jail.
The irony is that her way is actually better (which is probably why she got applauded by a few of the people listening). Had the entire EA military followed her way rather than picking sides, Clarke would have been kicked out of power without the need for EA personnel killing each other. It's also far more idealistic and less likely to succeed than Sheridan's way. We all see Sheridan as the hero because it worked out for him, but remember that Sheridan took a long time before being willing to go up against Earth for many of the same reasons that Lockley didn't want to.
So once again you see that thing B5 does so wonderfully, shades of grey instead of black and white. Both Lochley and Sheridan did the wrong and the right thing.
Talvitar
Member
This is so true. B5's characters aren't onesided. Nobody is perfect, everyone has their blind spots, their history, their baggage, their personal heavens or hells.
(and we all get to select which shades of grey we appreciate most... it's also a learning curve to getting to know oneself just a bit better?)
