B5_Obsessed
Regular
That was the thing. When "Gesthemene" started, I was so pleased to see him playing that type of character for a change, and then WHAM! Guess what? He's a serial killer. A remember voicing my disappointment out loud at the time.
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EpDis: Passing Through Gethsemane
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
Jade Jaguar
Regular
No, he was a serial killer. That is quite a different thing. When we see him, he is quite a different person. That is part of what I like so much about this ep. It shows that we are not slaves to our genes, we have vast possibilities in life. The same person could turn out in such different ways. If his life had been different in some ways, he would never have become a serial killer. Once that was erased, he was free to be a much better person, which is the person we saw.
There is an ill-named, and not overly good scifi film, The Butterfly Effect, that uses that theme, that differences in our lives can lead us to be quite different people. I did like that aspect of that film.
GaribaldisHair
Regular
There is also a little thing called "hiring the actor that you think will do the best job playing the character". Brother Edward gave BD the chance to play both sides of the coin at the same time - don't forget, we never actually see the serial killer character except in a few brief shots of vid from the trial and a brief flashback.
The character that we see, and the character that BD plays pretty much throughout the episode, is the "reformed" Brother Edward, not Charles Dexter.
If you want your audience to believe that the gentle, deep thinking and humble man you see before you was once a vicious serial murderer then you need to hire an actor who can pull that off in just a few very short scenes. Dourif did that very very well ... and the fact that we have seen him play that type of character before probably helped that along.
The character that we see, and the character that BD plays pretty much throughout the episode, is the "reformed" Brother Edward, not Charles Dexter.
If you want your audience to believe that the gentle, deep thinking and humble man you see before you was once a vicious serial murderer then you need to hire an actor who can pull that off in just a few very short scenes. Dourif did that very very well ... and the fact that we have seen him play that type of character before probably helped that along.
B5obsessive
Member
Brilliant! Also note that this is the first of the LONG list of messes that Lyta teeps them out of, only to be completely ignored once the situation is sorted. That always drove me nuts. She helped them over and over because it was the right thing, and got zip. The odd "thank you" would have saved them SO much trouble later.
GaribaldisHair
Regular
Absolutely. Here begins Lyta's long road to Byron's ... erm ... cause.
Boxie
Regular
I liked this one! I know...but what can I say, I like them all! I gave it an "A", too! Brad Douriff was so good. He was so convincingly tortured, shocked that he was once a cold-blooded killer!
I remember seeing him in Lord of the Rings. I just sat there and stared at him. It was his eyes...I kept telling myself, "I know those eyes!!" It took me a little while...the hair threw me off..but I finally figured out who it was!
This is one of my top 5 favorite eps of the entire saga. Mainly because of Douriff. I've been a fan of his for eons it seems and to have him play such a tragic and complex character was delightful. A *very* long way from Doc Cochran (Deadwood's sawbones, for those unfamiliar), but still one in a long line of brilliant characterizations from a master.
This brought to light some of JMS' most stirring and troubling themes. One, who among us would be brave enough to take one for the home team? Two, what is the nature of forgiveness and is it **really** possible to totally forgive someone?
Truly deep stuff. I just watched it again on DVD and even after all this time of B5 drought here in my little hermitage, it's still just as riveting as ever.
Oh, and by way of post script. . .this is proof that no good deed goes unpunished--Lyta's abandonment by the very people she's helped to save so many times, despite certain personal peril. And, what goes around comes around. The poster above said it: a little gratitude would've gone a very long way with Lyta. Too bad they were all too blind to appreciate what she did. Well, other than poor little Zack and his really unappetizing-looking pizza.
Jacqui
This brought to light some of JMS' most stirring and troubling themes. One, who among us would be brave enough to take one for the home team? Two, what is the nature of forgiveness and is it **really** possible to totally forgive someone?
Truly deep stuff. I just watched it again on DVD and even after all this time of B5 drought here in my little hermitage, it's still just as riveting as ever.
Oh, and by way of post script. . .this is proof that no good deed goes unpunished--Lyta's abandonment by the very people she's helped to save so many times, despite certain personal peril. And, what goes around comes around. The poster above said it: a little gratitude would've gone a very long way with Lyta. Too bad they were all too blind to appreciate what she did. Well, other than poor little Zack and his really unappetizing-looking pizza.
Jacqui
hypatia
Regular
I agree with much of what you say, Jacqui. But...
handing yourself over to a murderous enemy in these circumstances is just STUPID.
Sorry, it's not that I don't like this episode. It's actually my favorite episode of B5, ever.
But I see that decision of Brad's character to be an indication of his mental confusion and a need to feel he's "paid' for his sins.
I don't see that as taking one for the home team. The home team would have been a hell of a lot better off if he'd managed to stay calm and work it out rationally.
But that would have robbed us of that beautiful ending.
Hi Hypatia!
Actually, I was making a reference to the Biblical Gathsemane and Jesus. One of those early portent-laden analogies of Sheridan as Christ-like figure, played out with another, more expendable character in the role of sacrificial lamb. That's also how poor Brother Edward thought of it as well, hence his comments about not knowing whether or not, should the ultimate sacrifice be asked of him, like Jesus in the Garden, would he be able to surrender himself up to the mob and destiny.
I agree, it was a terrible loss, but acted as a great morality fable when the ring leader of Brother Edward's persecutors ends up as Theo's newest accolyte. What is the nature of forgiveness and sacrifice, and also the meaning of justice versus punishment. It certainly left Sheridan speechless and the expression on Brother Theo's face was pricelss as he delivered the final message.
And yes. . .a truly touching ending.
Jacqui
Actually, I was making a reference to the Biblical Gathsemane and Jesus. One of those early portent-laden analogies of Sheridan as Christ-like figure, played out with another, more expendable character in the role of sacrificial lamb. That's also how poor Brother Edward thought of it as well, hence his comments about not knowing whether or not, should the ultimate sacrifice be asked of him, like Jesus in the Garden, would he be able to surrender himself up to the mob and destiny.
I agree, it was a terrible loss, but acted as a great morality fable when the ring leader of Brother Edward's persecutors ends up as Theo's newest accolyte. What is the nature of forgiveness and sacrifice, and also the meaning of justice versus punishment. It certainly left Sheridan speechless and the expression on Brother Theo's face was pricelss as he delivered the final message.
And yes. . .a truly touching ending.
Jacqui
hypatia
Regular
My point is that it wasn't a terrible loss as much as a terrible waste. But yes, for the reason you mention, it was absolutely necessary for the ultimate "now, what about when YOU are the one so effected?" angle that is so neatly pulled off at the end.
I just have to see it as a bad choice by brother Edwards, and not a necessary sacrifice.
Hee hee, but is that like saying "why DIDN'T Socrates just... lay off of people for awhile?", isn't it?
Boxie
Regular
I always thought it sad that Brother Edward didn't extend the same hope of forgiveness to himself that he would have to anyone else.
Had he been approached by an individual tortured by his past deeds, he would have strapped himself to that person's side, bent on making them understand there is forgiveness.
I think the mind swipe itself, the shock of realizing who he had been and what he'd done, all played a part in his final decision.
Had he been approached by an individual tortured by his past deeds, he would have strapped himself to that person's side, bent on making them understand there is forgiveness.
I think the mind swipe itself, the shock of realizing who he had been and what he'd done, all played a part in his final decision.
hypatia
Regular
Or unhinged him. I just find the episode so much easier to make sense of if I see his decision as being one made during a mentally clouded moment.
And very good point, Boxie: he would never have demanded this of anyone. But then, that fits into the fable perfectly, too, doesn't it?
And very good point, Boxie: he would never have demanded this of anyone. But then, that fits into the fable perfectly, too, doesn't it?
Boxie
Regular
Yeah, that's I mean...I think this was a "clouded" decision. Didn't Garibaldi say that no one really knows the long-term effects of the mind-sweep? Is it possible then that, once someone remembers, they could ...
flip out... act irrationally, etc... and possibly do something neither the old or new personality would have done?
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I think part of the reason he effectively committed suicide is that he was afraid that his old, murderous personality was reemerging, and he couldn't live with that possibility, or allow the risk to others. Douriff is one of my favorite, under-appreciated actors, and has been since I saw One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, when it first came out.
I completely agree with you on this. That's why he "sacrificed" himself, "took one for the home team," or however you'd like to label it. The very idea of the serial killer in him reemerging drove him to it.
How was the death of personality carried out? My brain is like a sieve these days. Did the Psi Corps do it? If so. . .now that IS a terrifying thought. . .talk about a weapon for pacification. We mundanes wouldn't stand a chance.
And on another note, if you're a Douriff fan, don't miss his performance as Doc Cochran in Deadwood. He's more than brilliant. He's mezmerizing!
Jacqui
Jan
Regular
It wasn't absolutely specified I'm pretty sure that the telepaths only scan before and after but the wipe is done mechanically somehow. In 'The Quality of Mercy' the Ombuds said:
"...It is therefore the decision of this court that you be sentenced to the death of personality. You will be committed under guard to a medlab facility, where you will be telepathically scanned, and then brainwiped. The personality of Karl Edward Mueller will be totally and completly erased. After a second scan to determine that the personality that committed the crimes has been eradicated, you will then be programmed with a new set of memories...."
And in the next scene Franklin mentions that he'll need to check over the equipment to make sure the process is painless.
Jan
