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EpDis: Point Of No Return
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Ah. In that case I stand by my apology for misunderstanding the point you were making in that post, but reaffirm that you have always been wrong and JMS does disagree with you on the point you weren't making. Really, how you can maintain that Morden "really is" or "really should be" who was meant by the prophecy in the face of both the internal logic of the story and JMS's flat statement is beyond me. 
Regards,
Joe
Regards,
Joe
KoshFan
Regular
Well, my argument is that the internal logic of the story supports me.
Lady Morella says that Londo has three chances. Save the eye, don't kill the man, surrender to his greatest fear, we all know them. Also, remember that if he blows the first two the third chance is his only chance for redemption. We're pretty clear that G'Kar's eye was the first. So that's settled.
But if Sheridan were the man who is already dead... and not killing him redeemed him... then by simply not killing Sheridan Londo is redeemed, the third chance for redemption is unnecessary, Londo doesn't have to surrender to his greatest fear and be destroyed by it, and we encounter the very first time in the entire B5 universe where something doesn't happen in threes. In fact, it could be argued that since Londo doesn't need to be destroyed, he should survive and die peacefully in his old age, surrounded by friends and relations.
Except, of course, he doesn't. (Instead he dies surrounded by one friend. Or at least his neck does.) His death is necessary for Sheridan's escape -- and Delenn's, too. Let's not forget her. So either this interpretation of the prophecy is a little off, or Londo is caught in some cosmically tragic Catch-22. "Yeah, you've already been redeemed, so you don't have to surrender to your greatest fear and be destroyed by it. But you still have to die."
As I see it, the only way you can say that Sheridan is the man who is already dead is if you also say that Londo got it right the second time and was redeemed, and the third chance at redemption -- now superfluous -- is something we never actually saw. Which doesn't sit well with me either.
Now a good debater will present his counterargument, so here goes:
Morden is the man who is already dead. What Londo should have done, in order to both save his world and to avoid succumbing to his own desire for revenge, would be to nuke Selini and then send Morden off to the other Shadows with Londo's message: hands off Centauri Prime. Instead, Londo kills the Shadows to get them off his world, but he kills Morden largely out of personal vengeance for Adira, and this, I would argue, is where he blows his chance for redemption.
Londo surrenders to his greatest fear when the Drakh place the keeper on him. Consider his reasons for allowing this: he is doing so to save his world and his people, and is sacrificing his freedom -- not only of deed but also of thought -- for that purpose. Selfishness and ambition dragged him into the alliance with the Shadows (witness "The Coming of Shadows"), and now selflessness and sacrifice absolve him of that guilt. Also, consider: Londo appears to be a happy drunk in the early seasons, but this covers his own dread of his irrelevancy, his powerlessness. Through the help of the Shadows he shook off that irrelevancy. By surrendering to the keeper, he returns to that powerlessness and irrelevancy -- but he can no longer even control his own words or actions.
Moreover, being killed by G'Kar is no longer Londo's greatest fear at the time of death. He tells G'Kar to do it; he has been expecting it for a long time; by doing so he saves his people. It is something to embrace, not reject, and he embraces it.
So there's my argument: Morden is the man who is already dead, the keeper (loss of control) is Londo's greatest fear, he is redeemed by that act, and then marks time for seventeen years. When the chance to free his people comes at last, he jumps for it.
I really think JMS either missed a trick, or simply spaced out when he said Sheridan was the man who was already dead. Either way, that's how I read the prophecy.
Lady Morella says that Londo has three chances. Save the eye, don't kill the man, surrender to his greatest fear, we all know them. Also, remember that if he blows the first two the third chance is his only chance for redemption. We're pretty clear that G'Kar's eye was the first. So that's settled.
But if Sheridan were the man who is already dead... and not killing him redeemed him... then by simply not killing Sheridan Londo is redeemed, the third chance for redemption is unnecessary, Londo doesn't have to surrender to his greatest fear and be destroyed by it, and we encounter the very first time in the entire B5 universe where something doesn't happen in threes. In fact, it could be argued that since Londo doesn't need to be destroyed, he should survive and die peacefully in his old age, surrounded by friends and relations.
Except, of course, he doesn't. (Instead he dies surrounded by one friend. Or at least his neck does.) His death is necessary for Sheridan's escape -- and Delenn's, too. Let's not forget her. So either this interpretation of the prophecy is a little off, or Londo is caught in some cosmically tragic Catch-22. "Yeah, you've already been redeemed, so you don't have to surrender to your greatest fear and be destroyed by it. But you still have to die."
As I see it, the only way you can say that Sheridan is the man who is already dead is if you also say that Londo got it right the second time and was redeemed, and the third chance at redemption -- now superfluous -- is something we never actually saw. Which doesn't sit well with me either.
Now a good debater will present his counterargument, so here goes:
Morden is the man who is already dead. What Londo should have done, in order to both save his world and to avoid succumbing to his own desire for revenge, would be to nuke Selini and then send Morden off to the other Shadows with Londo's message: hands off Centauri Prime. Instead, Londo kills the Shadows to get them off his world, but he kills Morden largely out of personal vengeance for Adira, and this, I would argue, is where he blows his chance for redemption.
Londo surrenders to his greatest fear when the Drakh place the keeper on him. Consider his reasons for allowing this: he is doing so to save his world and his people, and is sacrificing his freedom -- not only of deed but also of thought -- for that purpose. Selfishness and ambition dragged him into the alliance with the Shadows (witness "The Coming of Shadows"), and now selflessness and sacrifice absolve him of that guilt. Also, consider: Londo appears to be a happy drunk in the early seasons, but this covers his own dread of his irrelevancy, his powerlessness. Through the help of the Shadows he shook off that irrelevancy. By surrendering to the keeper, he returns to that powerlessness and irrelevancy -- but he can no longer even control his own words or actions.
Moreover, being killed by G'Kar is no longer Londo's greatest fear at the time of death. He tells G'Kar to do it; he has been expecting it for a long time; by doing so he saves his people. It is something to embrace, not reject, and he embraces it.
So there's my argument: Morden is the man who is already dead, the keeper (loss of control) is Londo's greatest fear, he is redeemed by that act, and then marks time for seventeen years. When the chance to free his people comes at last, he jumps for it.
I really think JMS either missed a trick, or simply spaced out when he said Sheridan was the man who was already dead. Either way, that's how I read the prophecy.
Sindatur
Regular
The flaw in your argument KF is that Morden wasn't dead, he was near death and repaired by the Shadows. The Shadows aren't capable of bringing someone back to life when they are dead.
Londo chose not to Kill Sheridan, so, if Sheridan had gotten away before the Keeper awoke, Londo would've been saved. But, the Keeper woke up and would've killed Sheridan. So, in order to "Not kill the man who was already dead" Londo had to surrender himself to his greatest fear. He had dnightmares of being killed by G'Kar all his life, that fear never went away, he accepted his fate, but, never relished it. And I feel he also feared leaving the fate of his people in someone else's hands, as he was doing by allowing G'Kar to kill him.
Londo chose not to Kill Sheridan, so, if Sheridan had gotten away before the Keeper awoke, Londo would've been saved. But, the Keeper woke up and would've killed Sheridan. So, in order to "Not kill the man who was already dead" Londo had to surrender himself to his greatest fear. He had dnightmares of being killed by G'Kar all his life, that fear never went away, he accepted his fate, but, never relished it. And I feel he also feared leaving the fate of his people in someone else's hands, as he was doing by allowing G'Kar to kill him.
GKarsEye
Regular
And the Shadows would have agreed, cowering to Londo's "message?"
And Lady Morella never said that Londo will accomplish one and only one of his chances. Nor did she say, "succumb to what will be your greatest fear at the time of when it happens," nor can we assume it wasn't his greatest fear just because he was noble enough to conquer it for a moment.
Surrending to the Keeper is not his greatest fear because he didn't even know it existed up until right before he put it on. The G'Kar thing has been haunting him all his life.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
"In the end, if you have failed all the others, you must give in to your greatest fear"
Londo's greatest fear, articulated from the very first regular episode and repeatedly referred to thereafter is his death at G'Kar's hands. Accepting the Keeper doesn't fit the bill. A writer of JMS's calibre doesn't set something like that up without having it pay off. Also remember that we see the end of Londo's story in S3, and JMS had to shape the story so it could wrap in S4 with a coda in the form of "SiL". Londo accepting the Keeper would have taken place off screen entirely. Odd way to plot a narrative.
Londo fails in his attempt to free Sheridan, "the one who is already dead", and must then at the last face what has always beeh his greatest fear, but is now transformed into something else - death at G'Kar's hands, the only way to prevent the Keeper from waking up and killing Sheridan. Don't forget, the prophecy doesn't indicate one way or the other if it is talking about Londo's greatest fear at the time of his death or his greatest fear at the time he receives the prophecy. In any case if accepting the Keeper is his greatest fear it hardly comes "at the last", but rather 17 years before his demise.
Regards,
Joe
Londo's greatest fear, articulated from the very first regular episode and repeatedly referred to thereafter is his death at G'Kar's hands. Accepting the Keeper doesn't fit the bill. A writer of JMS's calibre doesn't set something like that up without having it pay off. Also remember that we see the end of Londo's story in S3, and JMS had to shape the story so it could wrap in S4 with a coda in the form of "SiL". Londo accepting the Keeper would have taken place off screen entirely. Odd way to plot a narrative.
Londo fails in his attempt to free Sheridan, "the one who is already dead", and must then at the last face what has always beeh his greatest fear, but is now transformed into something else - death at G'Kar's hands, the only way to prevent the Keeper from waking up and killing Sheridan. Don't forget, the prophecy doesn't indicate one way or the other if it is talking about Londo's greatest fear at the time of his death or his greatest fear at the time he receives the prophecy. In any case if accepting the Keeper is his greatest fear it hardly comes "at the last", but rather 17 years before his demise.
Regards,
Joe
KoshFan
Regular
Mmm. The change in his fear over time is something that had not occurred to me. Morden still qualifies as a candidate (if nothing more) on the strength of Sheridan's comment in "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum."
GKE wrote:
Well, probably not. But as "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" pointed out, whether or not it would have worked is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Londo had a chance to act and failed to do so.
Interesting argument about failing to save Sheridan... especially since under that logic Londo still doesn't kill the one who is already dead, and I'm not quite sure how that qualifies as failing... but I will accept that on the strength of the setup, his death at G'Kar's hands is fitting salvation for him. I just think that JMS muddied the waters excessively with his prophecy if that's what he intended all along.
GKE wrote:
Well, probably not. But as "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" pointed out, whether or not it would have worked is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Londo had a chance to act and failed to do so.
Interesting argument about failing to save Sheridan... especially since under that logic Londo still doesn't kill the one who is already dead, and I'm not quite sure how that qualifies as failing... but I will accept that on the strength of the setup, his death at G'Kar's hands is fitting salvation for him. I just think that JMS muddied the waters excessively with his prophecy if that's what he intended all along.
hypatia
Regular
He didn't fail at that task, he was about to fail at that task. Knowing when the keeper awoke he would not be in control of his actions any longer.
O.K. there's no debate about the "already dead" part of the prophesy since JMS specifically answered that.
What about the other parts?
O.K. there's no debate about the "already dead" part of the prophesy since JMS specifically answered that.
What about the other parts?
darth_librarian
Regular
But you did'nt....
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I'll give your now abandoned theory one thing. Morden could qualify as "one who is already dead," since he was on the Icarus, and supposed to be dead. But, even if JMS hadn't said so, I still think it was Sheridan, for the reasons stated by others.
Estelyn
Regular
Lady Morella is indeed a fascinating character, and I'm pretty sure JMS wrote some very symbolic dialogues that reference the fact that Majel Barrett also is (was) the widow of Gene Roddenberry, carrying on his legacy. The fact that Londo gives her a tour of B5 is a cross-reference to having an influential Star Trek star as a guest actress, imo.
I agree that the prophecy must remain unclear - that is the nature of prophecy. Lady M correctly says, "The future reveals itself only reluctantly." One thing that JMS brought up when talking about it hasn't yet been mentioned here - the fact that she only *says* "the eye that does not see". It could be "I"! I'm not quite sure how that would work out, but it's an interesting point.
There are quite a few memorable lines in this episode: "Intelligence has nothing to do with politics" may have been spoken by a Centauri, but it can also be applied to short-sighted Earth politics. Ta'Lon's "Not all replies are answers" is another great line, as is Sheridan's "Always plant a lie inside a truth".
I really like the way the cinematography picks up on the aspect of two opponents. We see the orders from Earth being transmitted in cuts back and forth between the officers and the General, and the liason and his Night Watch personnel. That gives two different points of view as well as dividing up the amount of information given to the viewers.
Later we see the two teams, officers and Night Watch, approaching the trap in cuts back and forth. Then we see it through Zack's eyes, when he's told by each of the opposing sides that he's done the right thing. He's been uncomfortable for awhile, though we don't get told what pushed him over the line to support Sheridan and Co.
Lady Morella, as befits a guest star of such magnitude, gets the weightiest line of the whole episode: "There is always choice." Up to now, Londo has tried to make himself a victim of circumstances, one who has no choice. Does he now begin to realize and accept his responsibility?
I agree that the prophecy must remain unclear - that is the nature of prophecy. Lady M correctly says, "The future reveals itself only reluctantly." One thing that JMS brought up when talking about it hasn't yet been mentioned here - the fact that she only *says* "the eye that does not see". It could be "I"! I'm not quite sure how that would work out, but it's an interesting point.
There are quite a few memorable lines in this episode: "Intelligence has nothing to do with politics" may have been spoken by a Centauri, but it can also be applied to short-sighted Earth politics. Ta'Lon's "Not all replies are answers" is another great line, as is Sheridan's "Always plant a lie inside a truth".
I really like the way the cinematography picks up on the aspect of two opponents. We see the orders from Earth being transmitted in cuts back and forth between the officers and the General, and the liason and his Night Watch personnel. That gives two different points of view as well as dividing up the amount of information given to the viewers.
Later we see the two teams, officers and Night Watch, approaching the trap in cuts back and forth. Then we see it through Zack's eyes, when he's told by each of the opposing sides that he's done the right thing. He's been uncomfortable for awhile, though we don't get told what pushed him over the line to support Sheridan and Co.
Lady Morella, as befits a guest star of such magnitude, gets the weightiest line of the whole episode: "There is always choice." Up to now, Londo has tried to make himself a victim of circumstances, one who has no choice. Does he now begin to realize and accept his responsibility?
Alioth
Regular
Estelyn said:
[Kosh]Yes.[/Kosh]
I like the idea that it can be any of them--for different reasons (but with a general similarity). One way I looked at the quote "don't kill the man that is already dead", though, was that it implied there was no real need to kill such a person (i.e. he's "already dead", killing him would essentially be "overkill")--and that aspect seems to point to Morden, in that once the Shadows on Centauri Prime were destroyed, Morden was pretty much ineffective and no longer posed a threat*. No need to kill him (as he was "dead"--inert--in a figurative manner of speaking), but plenty of vengefulness drove Londo to do so anyway. Although it wasn't Morden's death that motivated the Drakh to take the specific vengeance they did on Londo and the Centauri, but the killing of their "gods" (Shadows) on that planet--so I'm not sure if the outcome there would have been different if Londo sent Morden on his way after nuking the Shadow base, or kept him in some Centauri dungeon indefinitely without killing him.
There's somewhat of a good case for Refa too though--that the same vengefulness that led to Londo killing (half-poisoned) Refa, was what wrapped him more tightly in the hands of Morden and the Shadows, perhaps making the horrendous path he'd go down inevitable from that point (and, might Refa have ended up the "keepered" Emperor instead otherwise?).
Sure JMS answered the question of his intent, but it's interesting that we can see how other interpretations can also make sense within the arc, in different ways. To me, that's a credit to the author, that he can weave a tale richer in layers than even he'll acknowledge (or may even be aware of). He's created a universe larger than himself, a work with a life of its own, and that's a good thing.
*Edit to add: except for the question of whether the Vorlon fleet would have destroyed Centauri Prime just for Morden's presence there--"anyone touched by Shadows". We see Londo was even willing to sacrifice his life as the planetkiller approached, when Vir pointed out there was still someone there touched by Shadows. But at any rate, Londo may have felt Morden a threat to his world still, but it is heavily implied that his killing Morden and putting his head on a pike was done mainly out of fury for Morden killing Adira and playing him as he did.
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Alioth
Regular
This is the specific ep of the three-parter where the Nightwatch is tricked and trapped (in a clever "use the letter of the law" kind of way, like we've seen other times). While the next ep is where the actual declared separation of B5 from Earth occurred, there was absolutely no stopping that (well either that, or a successful clampdown by Earth, but the die was cast) from this point. This was Sheridan's moment of truth, indeed "the point of no return". The moment we've been waiting for since at least "The Fall of Night" was here, finally.... Sheridan finally took an overt and decisive stand (and conditions were ripe for him doing so) against the Shadow-darkened EarthGov, as we'd known he must eventually.
I'm not sure if I like this ep or the one following it more, but I know my heart really cheered when Nightwatch was successfully neutralized, and Sheridan effectively took control of B5 away from EarthGov. This, to me, is when the de-facto break with Earth occurred--the question from this point was whether it would succeed or not (answered in the next ep). The whole three-parter ("Messages from Earth" through "Severed Dreams") was amazing TV detailing this process of separation, which we've been waiting and wanting to see for awhile.
I'm not sure if I like this ep or the one following it more, but I know my heart really cheered when Nightwatch was successfully neutralized, and Sheridan effectively took control of B5 away from EarthGov. This, to me, is when the de-facto break with Earth occurred--the question from this point was whether it would succeed or not (answered in the next ep). The whole three-parter ("Messages from Earth" through "Severed Dreams") was amazing TV detailing this process of separation, which we've been waiting and wanting to see for awhile.
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vvalkerboh
Member
Lady Morrelas prophecies
1. "save the eye that does not see" refers to the The eye in "Signs and Portents"
2.must not "kill the one who is already dead," I think was the emperor in "The Coming of Shadows"
Now Lady Morrela said he failed 2 of the prophecies the 3rd he must "surrender to [his] greatest fear, knowing it will destroy [him]." i think is his allowing the drak to control him to rid his planet of influence
1. "save the eye that does not see" refers to the The eye in "Signs and Portents"
2.must not "kill the one who is already dead," I think was the emperor in "The Coming of Shadows"
Now Lady Morrela said he failed 2 of the prophecies the 3rd he must "surrender to [his] greatest fear, knowing it will destroy [him]." i think is his allowing the drak to control him to rid his planet of influence
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Morella didn't say that he had failed the first two of the three she named, she said, "You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire that waits for you at the end of your journey. You have already wasted two others." So he had five total. Since "Signs And Portents" and "The Coming Of Shadows" happened before she spoke to him, they couldn't be what she was referencing in the three she detailed to him, but I think one could argue that they might have been the other two she said he had already wasted.
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