-
The new B5TV.COM is here. We've replaced our 16 year old software with flashy new XenForo install. Registration is open again. Password resets will work again. More info here.
EpDis: Rising Star
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Ivanova's crying breakdown scene with Franklin on the floor of the medlab is one of the greatest dramatic moments of the show, in my opinion.
GaribaldisHair
Regular
'At least I should have boffed him just once.'
Elipsis
Regular
Indeed. And the episode gives a wonderful sense of closure... completely justified and well executed considering the uncertainty of season 5 at the time.
Who knew CC could act so well. Too bad we don't get to see it until practically her last appearance.
A.
Estelyn
Regular
This episode ties up a lot of loose ends. That gives many of the ensemble actors at least a scene or two, as well as adding guest actors such as the one who portrays President Luchenko - and the ISN anchor. Once again the newscast is used as a connecting element, providing background and transition.
I wonder just who is meant to be the title character, the "rising star"? Is it Luchenko, or Sheridan, both new presidents? Or is it more abstract and meant to refer to the Alliance?
Luchenko is very well portrayed. I was impressed by her measured vocal cadence, speaking quite slowly at the press conference to convey a calming influence. Yet she also came across as a hard-headed politician who accomplished what needed to be done - very pragmatic.
I agree with the above posts - Ivanova had what is probably her best scene in the whole show. She shows the difficulty of accepting the gift of life and love - nothing sweet about it! Her line that all love is unrequited is thought-provoking, though I'm not sure I agree. Certainly Delenn and Sheridan show that it can be reciprocated.
It*'s fun to see G'Kar and Londo with the strange, humorous "odd couple" kind of relationship they're developing.
Marcus' death finds meaning in Delenn's explanation - he has finally found peace by following the path of his heart. Once again we see Lennier's unrequited love for her in their scene together.
Garibaldi gets the action scene, rescuing Lise in his own inimitable way.
Even Bester shows up, sinister in one way, yet basically begging for Sheridan's help (already past) for his lover.
Sheridan is the man of the hour, of course - not only the conquering hero, but with prophetic insight, predicting the telepath wars. I like his speech about choices, consequences, and responsibility: some of the show's major themes. He again uses the phrase "all children of earth".
Much as I enjoy seeing a wedding, I think it's good that Sheridan's and Delenn's was not shown. It would not really have fit into the context of the show. It does amuse me to think of all the Minbari rituals they must have skipped; after the events of the past episodes, they apparently didn't want to waste any more time.
G'Kar's eye in their bedroom?! That's rather silly, I think. I do like the Narn's statement: "You do not make history, you only survive it."
And what Delenn says applies to the show as well as to the station: "Babylon 5 endures."
I wonder just who is meant to be the title character, the "rising star"? Is it Luchenko, or Sheridan, both new presidents? Or is it more abstract and meant to refer to the Alliance?
Luchenko is very well portrayed. I was impressed by her measured vocal cadence, speaking quite slowly at the press conference to convey a calming influence. Yet she also came across as a hard-headed politician who accomplished what needed to be done - very pragmatic.
I agree with the above posts - Ivanova had what is probably her best scene in the whole show. She shows the difficulty of accepting the gift of life and love - nothing sweet about it! Her line that all love is unrequited is thought-provoking, though I'm not sure I agree. Certainly Delenn and Sheridan show that it can be reciprocated.
It*'s fun to see G'Kar and Londo with the strange, humorous "odd couple" kind of relationship they're developing.
Marcus' death finds meaning in Delenn's explanation - he has finally found peace by following the path of his heart. Once again we see Lennier's unrequited love for her in their scene together.
Garibaldi gets the action scene, rescuing Lise in his own inimitable way.
Even Bester shows up, sinister in one way, yet basically begging for Sheridan's help (already past) for his lover.
Sheridan is the man of the hour, of course - not only the conquering hero, but with prophetic insight, predicting the telepath wars. I like his speech about choices, consequences, and responsibility: some of the show's major themes. He again uses the phrase "all children of earth".
Much as I enjoy seeing a wedding, I think it's good that Sheridan's and Delenn's was not shown. It would not really have fit into the context of the show. It does amuse me to think of all the Minbari rituals they must have skipped; after the events of the past episodes, they apparently didn't want to waste any more time.
G'Kar's eye in their bedroom?! That's rather silly, I think. I do like the Narn's statement: "You do not make history, you only survive it."
And what Delenn says applies to the show as well as to the station: "Babylon 5 endures."
Lennier's Tears
Regular
I don't like this episode AS much as the one right before it, but it does have a lot of good stuff in it. It just kind of makes me sad. It wraps up all these storylines I've gotten caught up in, and it has Marcus' death and Ivanova's departure.
Already mentioned above, but I have to agree: That scene with Ivanova crying on the floor in medlab is utterly heartbreaking. I can't watch that without crying. I have a question about it, though. I'm assuming that the body under sheet in the background is Marcus'. But, don't we see him in a freezer later on? If they were going to freeze him, why do they just let him sit out under a sheet?
Also, it occurred to me today for the first time that people in medlab drop stuff a lot. A couple of doctors (or other medical professionals) walk into the room where Marcus and Ivanova are hooked up to the alien healing device early on in the episode. They're carefully picking their way through the chaos Marcus left in his wake, so they know something is up, yet one of them still drops the stuff she is holding when they see Marcus. There was a similar scene just a few episodes ago (The Exercise of Vital Powers) when Lyta "woke up" one of the telepaths they were experimenting on in medlab. I feel like there have been similar scenes, but I can't say exactly which episodes.
Anyway
I like the bits with Luchenko. I agree with Estelyn that that character is well-written and well-played, as seen in the different ways she communicates with the press, Sheridan, or anyone else.
Delenn does make an excellent point about Marcus' death. But I still can't help but mope around sadly for a good while whenever I watch this episode.
I always like a G'Kar/Londo scene, but that eye bit, ehh.. Newly enlightened G'Kar is a creeper?
Already mentioned above, but I have to agree: That scene with Ivanova crying on the floor in medlab is utterly heartbreaking. I can't watch that without crying. I have a question about it, though. I'm assuming that the body under sheet in the background is Marcus'. But, don't we see him in a freezer later on? If they were going to freeze him, why do they just let him sit out under a sheet?
Also, it occurred to me today for the first time that people in medlab drop stuff a lot. A couple of doctors (or other medical professionals) walk into the room where Marcus and Ivanova are hooked up to the alien healing device early on in the episode. They're carefully picking their way through the chaos Marcus left in his wake, so they know something is up, yet one of them still drops the stuff she is holding when they see Marcus. There was a similar scene just a few episodes ago (The Exercise of Vital Powers) when Lyta "woke up" one of the telepaths they were experimenting on in medlab. I feel like there have been similar scenes, but I can't say exactly which episodes.
Anyway
I like the bits with Luchenko. I agree with Estelyn that that character is well-written and well-played, as seen in the different ways she communicates with the press, Sheridan, or anyone else.
Delenn does make an excellent point about Marcus' death. But I still can't help but mope around sadly for a good while whenever I watch this episode.
I always like a G'Kar/Londo scene, but that eye bit, ehh.. Newly enlightened G'Kar is a creeper?
To be fair theres more to acting that just showing strong emotion and in this case I think the scene works so well exactly because its such a big shift from an otherwise quite emotionally detached and cynical character.
This scene/story always reminded me rather of Kirk in Wrath of Khan following Spocks sacrifice. As with many elements of the story I think JMS does a good job deconstructing architypes. Its not like we haven't seen a lot of characters similar to Ivanova down the years in TV and film, emotionally detached cocksure cynics who'se world view never really gets questioned that much.
I think it makes the plot pack more of a punch in that we've seen the kind of relationship she has with Marcus exist as playful banter without much consequence so many times elsewhere, the same way we don't really question Kirk's gung ho heroism. To then find that yes there is consequence to such a characters world view/actions catches us unawares just as it catches them.
Last edited:
Lennier's Tears
Regular
That's an excellent analysis of the Ivanova character. I had never really thought of it, but now that you mention it, yes I can see a parallel with the Spock death scene.
It is definitely true that after I watched this episode, the re-watching of any previous episodes with Ivanova and Marcus felt rather different to me.
I also probably never considered how big a shift that scene was from anything we saw her do before. She definitely looks hurt when "evil" Talia comes out and sort of taunts her, but that's about all we get. When her old boyfriend turns out to be homeguard she mostly just looks disgusted. She did cry at her father's service, but that took some effort
I would have loved to have seen how the character evolved after this traumatic event ... Don't we all? Alas.
It is definitely true that after I watched this episode, the re-watching of any previous episodes with Ivanova and Marcus felt rather different to me.
I also probably never considered how big a shift that scene was from anything we saw her do before. She definitely looks hurt when "evil" Talia comes out and sort of taunts her, but that's about all we get. When her old boyfriend turns out to be homeguard she mostly just looks disgusted. She did cry at her father's service, but that took some effort
I would have loved to have seen how the character evolved after this traumatic event ... Don't we all? Alas.
I mention Trek but actually I think the way JMS calls moral failings to account is actually much closer to Tolkien. Indeed you get the most obvious setup for Ivanova here from a character with the most obvious links to him in Lorien, firstly his "its easy to find something worth dying for, have you got anything worth living for?" message to Sheridan and then his talk directly with her about mortality from Into the Fire.
Talia is definitely a setup for this, that's I would say a situation rather like G'kar in Coming of Shadows where a character has a shot at redemption taken away by outside events. I think she reaction to Sheridan's "death" at the start of the 4th season is also telling in its detachment or at least attempted detachment.
To me the message would be that having a death wish for the "good cause" is not really the ultimate moral answer and not an excuse for a lack of compassion elsewhere. Perhaps as well I would suggest that although Ivanova was fighting the good fight people in this kind of situation generally often don't.
I must admit I do tend to agree with CC that viewed with Sleeping In Light the character if not "complete" had run its course. I think its notable that Ivanova is narrating the ending of Sleeping in Light as she's the character who "carrys on the story" still searching for redemption. Ironically of course if you were to try and carry on the story at the moment it was actually be easiest with her since CC is about the same age today as she's ment to be by the finale.
Talia is definitely a setup for this, that's I would say a situation rather like G'kar in Coming of Shadows where a character has a shot at redemption taken away by outside events. I think she reaction to Sheridan's "death" at the start of the 4th season is also telling in its detachment or at least attempted detachment.
To me the message would be that having a death wish for the "good cause" is not really the ultimate moral answer and not an excuse for a lack of compassion elsewhere. Perhaps as well I would suggest that although Ivanova was fighting the good fight people in this kind of situation generally often don't.
I must admit I do tend to agree with CC that viewed with Sleeping In Light the character if not "complete" had run its course. I think its notable that Ivanova is narrating the ending of Sleeping in Light as she's the character who "carrys on the story" still searching for redemption. Ironically of course if you were to try and carry on the story at the moment it was actually be easiest with her since CC is about the same age today as she's ment to be by the finale.
Last edited:
Lennier's Tears
Regular
Do you mean Ivanova's or Marcus'? I never really picked up on Ivanova having as much of a "death wish" as Marcus, or Sinclair. I'm also not sure that she lacks compassion. But, I could easily be missing something. It's been known to happen
As for Marcus' sacrifice, I'd agree that it isn't presented as a "good thing", which is sort of interesting since self-sacrifice appears to be one of the main themes of the show. Perhaps together with "cooperation", or "community". Although I suppose they could be considered different parts of the same whole. Marcus, of course, didn't sacrifice himself for "the cause", he sacrificed himself to save the person he loved. It could be argued that he considered her more useful to the cause than himself, but that's a stretch. It isn't said anywhere that a sacrifice for the cause is more "moral" than a sacrifice for love. Sebastian in Comes the Inquisitor: "No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother". Not that the Vorlons are supposed to be the ultimate authority on morality
Draal in A Voice in the Wilderness I: "The third principle of sentient life is the capacity for self-sacrifice: the conscious ability to override evolution and self-preservation for a cause, a friend, a loved one". I don't know if self-sacrifice is ever presented as a pure "good thing", but it does seem to be presented as the necessary thing. This episode is a little different in that respect. Ivanova gets to live, but she'll have to live with this guilt, even if she obviously had no say in the matter, and she will have to live with the loss.I'm not sure I'd agree with that ... I mean, I don't think it applies to that character any more than any other character. It certainly would have been interesting to see her in the telepath storyline.
I was talking more about her than him and I think you can see especially in the conflict against the advanced destroyers that she's very much of the view that they all must be destroyed no matter the costs(which you can see Marcus is worried about). She's quite prone to taking extreme risks elsewhere in the show as well just as Sheridan was.
Its interesting that you mention that comment by Sebastian, I'd not considered before that it perhaps reflects on the Vorlons rather narrow view of morality relative to Lorien although I would say that Sheridan and Delenn sacrifce is one based on compassion. The view of the show as a whole I would say isn't that dieing for a good cause is wrong but that it isn't the be all and end all of morality and especially that compassion for others rather than hate should be at the heart of it. For Ivanova I think you could make the case that she fears death much less than emotional pain.
Watching Sleeping in Light you do get the idea that she hasn't found an emotional resolution in the years since and that becoming the leader of the rangers is perhaps her chance to do so. To me that did seem to fit into JMS's idea that the story never really end, interesting as well that despite seeming to makeup any ill feeling with CC he's never looked to carry on this story so perhaps he does value that kind of ending?
Its interesting that you mention that comment by Sebastian, I'd not considered before that it perhaps reflects on the Vorlons rather narrow view of morality relative to Lorien although I would say that Sheridan and Delenn sacrifce is one based on compassion. The view of the show as a whole I would say isn't that dieing for a good cause is wrong but that it isn't the be all and end all of morality and especially that compassion for others rather than hate should be at the heart of it. For Ivanova I think you could make the case that she fears death much less than emotional pain.
Watching Sleeping in Light you do get the idea that she hasn't found an emotional resolution in the years since and that becoming the leader of the rangers is perhaps her chance to do so. To me that did seem to fit into JMS's idea that the story never really end, interesting as well that despite seeming to makeup any ill feeling with CC he's never looked to carry on this story so perhaps he does value that kind of ending?
Last edited:
Jan
Regular
He hasn't written *any* B5 at all since the thaw in relations with CC. That's only a few years ago.
But he's written two short stories featuring Ivanova since the end of B5- "Hidden Agendas" where she's in command of the Warlock destroyer and "Space, Time and the Incurable Romantic", a rather controversial story about Ivanova and Marcus.
Jan
Good to know there's someone else here besides us to resurrecting decade old threads.
I must confess I'v never read either of those stories but I remember someone posting the cliff nots of the second and really its much more about Marcus than it is Ivanova.
Anything that comes before Sleeping In Light though does clearly seem like it would be beholden to her position at that point which still to be clearly seems emotionally unresolved. I can definitely see how the character could have been used effectively in the 5th season but taken more in isolation I do find what we got very satisfactory and think it would have been hard to beat given that again you can't really offer an emotional resolution and have Sleeping in Light work.
I must confess I'v never read either of those stories but I remember someone posting the cliff nots of the second and really its much more about Marcus than it is Ivanova.
Anything that comes before Sleeping In Light though does clearly seem like it would be beholden to her position at that point which still to be clearly seems emotionally unresolved. I can definitely see how the character could have been used effectively in the 5th season but taken more in isolation I do find what we got very satisfactory and think it would have been hard to beat given that again you can't really offer an emotional resolution and have Sleeping in Light work.
Jan
Regular
Ivanova was never a particular favorite of mine (I really liked Lochley much better right off the bat) but I would have *loved* to have seen her in Season 5. If it had been Ivanova who'd had to call Bester in to deal with the rogue telepaths, that would have been some major drama. Not to mention having her allow herself to become involved with Byron only to find that it was a mistake. There could have been some really good acting opportunities for CC if she'd stayed.
Jan
Jan
Lennier's Tears
Regular
I would also have loved to have seen this.
Yes, I think that's exactly right. I should have added something like that when I was listing major themes. It is definitely there.
This is true, but in her (and Sheridan, for that matter), I see it more as duty and her accepting possible death as a consequence of doing what is right than what we see in Sinclair and Marcus who both suffer from survivor's guilt and are pretty much looking for an opportunity to die for something.
Interestingly, you could say that both Ivanova and Marcus came to be in the "Army of Light" because of a loss they suffered. Both of them lost a brother, too. It becomes clear in In The Beginning (and possibly elsewhere, I'm not sure) that Ivanova had decided to sign up with Earth Force before her brother's death, but I still get the impression that his death made her more determined. The situations were different, obviously, and I don't sense in her any guilt. Just loss. Everyone she's ever loved is dead. Yea, pairing her with Byron would be almost cruel, but it would have made sense.
Sinclair to me though dispite carrying survivors guilt does seem to be emotionally more rounded. Both Ivanova and Marcus seem to display more of a "Samurai" world view, maybe not totally unquestioning in their loyalty but defined by that loyalty to Sheridan and Delenn respectively and the cause they lead.
The difference I think you could argue between them is that they seem to go in opposite directions. Marcus seems most extreme in that mindset when we meet him and is ready to let Neroon kill him for it. As time progresses though he seems more defined by the friendships he develops with the B5 crew and feelings for Ivanova to the extent its actually the latter than he does effective die for.
With Ivanova she moves from still considering opening up to others earlier in the show to really being defined by loyality to Sheridan and the cause as things progress. You can see the effect on her is more extreme than anyone else bar Delenn when Sheridan goes missing presumed dead at the start of season 4 and its her pushing for the most extreme self sacfical tactics when he;s captured at the end of the season.
The difference I think you could argue between them is that they seem to go in opposite directions. Marcus seems most extreme in that mindset when we meet him and is ready to let Neroon kill him for it. As time progresses though he seems more defined by the friendships he develops with the B5 crew and feelings for Ivanova to the extent its actually the latter than he does effective die for.
With Ivanova she moves from still considering opening up to others earlier in the show to really being defined by loyality to Sheridan and the cause as things progress. You can see the effect on her is more extreme than anyone else bar Delenn when Sheridan goes missing presumed dead at the start of season 4 and its her pushing for the most extreme self sacfical tactics when he;s captured at the end of the season.
