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EpDis: The Coming Of Shadows
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
Estelyn
Regular
An excellent, excellent episode! The contrast between Londo's scheming for power, resulting in destruction, with his emperor's desire for peace, bringing him to apologise for past wrongs, is very powerful and moving. It's a typical B5 moment - just when you think things could go well and peace is within reach, it all falls apart.
G'Kar acts as a typical Narn at first; I get the impression that his encounter with the emperor is a first step in the direction his character development takes in the future. He learns that compassion and friendship are possible between the two peoples, and he thanks Sheridan for preventing him from acting rashly against Mollari.
I love seeing Sinclair again in his cameo! What an enticing bit of information about his role and the Rangers - a piece that will pay off in episodes and seasons to come.
We also have the theme of choice addressed in the conversation between Vir and Londo - it could have ended there, at least his part could have ended, but "no choice" is a choice.
Londo's dream is also a fascinating look into the future, not just his, but that of the series.
There's so much packed into the episode that it's hard to remember all that impressed me - really good quotes, excellent characters, and a great story. Best one up to this point!
G'Kar acts as a typical Narn at first; I get the impression that his encounter with the emperor is a first step in the direction his character development takes in the future. He learns that compassion and friendship are possible between the two peoples, and he thanks Sheridan for preventing him from acting rashly against Mollari.
I love seeing Sinclair again in his cameo! What an enticing bit of information about his role and the Rangers - a piece that will pay off in episodes and seasons to come.
We also have the theme of choice addressed in the conversation between Vir and Londo - it could have ended there, at least his part could have ended, but "no choice" is a choice.
Londo's dream is also a fascinating look into the future, not just his, but that of the series.
There's so much packed into the episode that it's hard to remember all that impressed me - really good quotes, excellent characters, and a great story. Best one up to this point!
Lennier's Tears
Regular
I agree with the vast majority of posters here in that everything about this episode is excellent. Things are really happening here. The Centauri emperor story is interesting, Londo and G'Kar do their Londo and G'Kar thing, the war is happening, the rangers are introduced, and we get to see Sinclair! There's also some beautiful space shots in this. As I said. Everything is excellent 
Comments:
A nice space shot from this episode, because it looks so cool:
Comments:
- Without his wig, the Centauri emperor is halfway to being indistinguishable from a human. If he put on human clothes, no one would be able to tell.
- I don't think G'Kar is being all that unreasonable when he voices his objections about the Centauri emperor visiting. If Earth had the same history with the Centauri as the Narn did, I don't think they'd be so keen to have him over, either. Obviously, the actual emperor appears to be a genuinely nice person, who is actually trying to apologize to the Narn, but I don't think that's widely known. A lot of humans are still pretty pissed at the Minbari, and the Earth-Minbari war was very short, compared to the history between the Narn and the Centauri.
- Vir looks so uncomfortable whenever Refa is around. For good reason!
- That Centauri emperor outfit is really nice-looking. I think I say that every time it's in an episode
- Earth had a draft during the Minbari war?
- Sheridan's anecdotes are always dad anecdotes
- Why is the Prime Minister casually hanging out on the throne?
- I noticed the emperor's pillow in medlab has the same pattern as the veils on the telepaths. Must be the imperial pattern.
- Londo looks soooo uncomfortable with what he's doing there at the end.
- In the Babylon 5 universe, where everything is on data crystals .. how do you keep your data crystals straight? Are they marked somehow? How did the Ranger know which one to give to Delenn and which one to Garibaldi?
A nice space shot from this episode, because it looks so cool:
Jan
Regular
Enjoying reading these, thanks.
If the Emperor were coming to Narn, G'Kar would be perfectly reasonable. But trying to keep him away from a neutral station...not reasonable at all.
That Emperor Turhan was actually going to apologize but died before he could was one of the true tragedies of B5.
Jan
If the Emperor were coming to Narn, G'Kar would be perfectly reasonable. But trying to keep him away from a neutral station...not reasonable at all.
That Emperor Turhan was actually going to apologize but died before he could was one of the true tragedies of B5.
Jan
Lennier's Tears
Regular
Yes, I can sort of see that point as well, hence my phrasing it as "not all that unreasonable" rather that "reasonable". But, "neutral" isn't a total free-for-all. People weren't too keen on having Jha'Dur around. The Centauri aren't the Dilgar, obviously, but I'm not sure the difference is that great. If it was the humans that had been conquered and enslaved by the Centauri, ... well, they wouldn't have a Babylon 5 ... but if they did, I kinda feel like they'd be more eager to put certain limits on this "neutrality" thing
Spoilers for later storylines below.
It absolutely fits with the storyline of EarthGov trying to buddy up with the Centauri so I'm not complaining about this story element. I'm not even really judging these humans for making these decisions. Just that from G'Kar's point of view, he HAS to object to the Centauri emperor visiting. He doesn't have to try to murder him, but a strong objection should be expected.
Also I guess my opinion is somewhat colored by the fact that I know what the Centauri are about to get up to, so I don't see a difference between the Centauri now (as in, at the time of this conversation between G'Kar and Sheridan) and the Centauri who occupied the Narn homeworld, while in reality there has probably been a somewhat less imperialistic government in place for a while. Still, if they haven't even publicly apologized for conquering another people's world, trashing the place, and terrorizing the population, I can see why the previously terrorized would object to the leader of that government making a friendly visit to a place dedicated to peace.
One of the main principles of the later Interstellar Alliance is that if you can't play nice with others, you're out. I guess I feel strongly that the Centauri can't play nice with others. This particular emperor turns out to be the nicest guy but he's trapped in a system that won't let him be nice. There are other "nice" Centauri, like Vir and presumably millions of unnamed ones, but their leadership seems irredeemably evil in general, even without the Shadows' involvement. Inviting the Centauri emperor for a casual visit feels a little like inviting Genghis Khan to your space station ("you" being someone not belonging to a people conquered by him). It's not like there's going to be any negotiations.
I'll admit I might be a little prejudiced due to knowledge of certain facts the characters on the show don't have access to
Most definitely!
I have nothing of value to contribute, but this episode title gives me the urge to flip through all the episode names to see how many could double as adult movie titles....
Edit: For those curious the answer is about 5. A few more, if you lower your standards enough to accept episodes like Infection.
Edit: For those curious the answer is about 5. A few more, if you lower your standards enough to accept episodes like Infection.
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Well, here's the list as I see it. If anybody's not in the mood to be 12 again, let me know and I'll remove this. Contributions and discussion are welcome, though an off-topic nuking from a mod isn't totally unexpected =]
The Coming of Shadows
Comes the Inquisitor
A Race Through Dark Places
The Long Dark
Strange Relations
The Long Night
Maybes:
Midnight on the Firing Line
Born to the Purple
Objects in Motion
Learning Curve
A Late Delivery From Avalon
I've got a mental image from that last one of somebody in full Arthurian garb saying "Did somebody order a grail?" as he starts to disrobe.
The Coming of Shadows
Comes the Inquisitor
A Race Through Dark Places
The Long Dark
Strange Relations
The Long Night
Maybes:
Midnight on the Firing Line
Born to the Purple
Objects in Motion
Learning Curve
A Late Delivery From Avalon
I've got a mental image from that last one of somebody in full Arthurian garb saying "Did somebody order a grail?" as he starts to disrobe.
Jan
Regular
Springer
Regular
I must have an innocent mind, as I don't get most of them!
Jan
Regular
None of them are even a little overtly suggestive, really. But, as Wulf said, it's looking at the titles from the outlook of a teenager and giggling over words like 'come'.
Jan
The Long Twilight Struggle? :devil:
I would say though that whilst the Centauri might not have given an official apology there policy very clearly had shifted away from imperialist expansion and towards appeasement of the Narns.
I think it plays very much into the story that G'kar is still a slave to his hatred of the Centauri until the apology is given. Afterall I think that its clear that a lot of Londo's motivation for dealing with the shadows isn't really out of a desire to "defeat" the Narns so much as it is a desire to escape what he see's as a likely future defeat by them. The tragedy is that its G'kars own previous actions that have ultimately helped lead to the chance of reconciliation being snatched away.
I would say though that whilst the Centauri might not have given an official apology there policy very clearly had shifted away from imperialist expansion and towards appeasement of the Narns.
I think it plays very much into the story that G'kar is still a slave to his hatred of the Centauri until the apology is given. Afterall I think that its clear that a lot of Londo's motivation for dealing with the shadows isn't really out of a desire to "defeat" the Narns so much as it is a desire to escape what he see's as a likely future defeat by them. The tragedy is that its G'kars own previous actions that have ultimately helped lead to the chance of reconciliation being snatched away.
Personally I think Sheridan felt more "real" in terms of feeling more fallible. I felt Sinclair had more gravitas but also generally the sense of a man with a destiny where as with Sheridan in command there felt like a much more "all bets are off" atmosphere.
It is a shame that Micheal O'Hares illness didn't allow him to feature a bit more post season 1 as I actually think he was if anything better suited to the Ranger One position. As Delenn became more humanised(literally and character wise) I think he could have played the role of the mysterious guide/mentor very well dropping into events every so often.
I think Sheridan in season 2 though really helped to make B5 one of the first TV shows to successfully sell the idea that things were going horribly wrong for the "good guys". Coming of Shadows and the latter parts of the season for me are really the basis of so much of the dramatic weight the story as a whole carried.
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Bruce definitely showed more range than O'Hare after it was all said and done. But as you stated, Sinclair had much more gravitas. I think it was partly due to the dialogue that Bruce was given early in season 2 that made him seem a bit goofy. I'm thinking of things like his scene when he wanted to give his big speech and no one was there and the "orange blossom" line at the end of Geometry of Shadows.
Bruce taking over was definitely better for the shows future as many just didn't take to sinclair. Many described him as wooden, which isn't really something i saw. If O'Hare had been more stable, it would have been great to see him as Ranger One several more times. When ITB was released I was really annoyed that they didn't film anything extra with Sinclair.
Sinclair was definitely portrayed as more self confident than Sheridan and IMHO more morally enlightened which gave the latter a lot more room to develop in.
A big issue as well IMHO is simply that the show as a whole shifted between season 1 and season 2. The opening season for me did I think have a more typical "TV stiffness" to it, certainly not as bad as something of the same era like Seaquest but it hadn't fully gotten past that. By season 2 I think we saw the cast as a whole being able to show more rounded personalities and indeed I think you can see that O'Hares performance in War Without End benefits from that.
