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EpDis: The Fall Of Night
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
A_M_Swallow
Regular
In a later episode aliens come to Babylon 5 to worship the "angel".
RW7427
Super Moderator
dencor
Regular
"Poke the plant."
have to love the drazi.
dreamer
Member
You're right!
Can't see how I managed to forget that since I love Zack and hey, it's a great scene
Still, it puzzles me to no end that JMS pretty much skipped this whole thing, considering how big a thing religion was in his scripts. I don't think I'm exaggerating in the slightest if I say that something like this happening there would've changed great many things, starting from the "neutral" position of the worlds of the League of the Non-Alligned worlds towards B5. Also, I would've expected at least similar behaviour towards Sheridan that he got after he returned to B5 with Lorien later on.
I guess it would've changed things too much and they let it slide.
KoshFan
Regular
The neutral worlds were willing to help with B5's defense, and came together to form a fleet; a lot of this was hard work and diplomacy on Delenn and Sheridan's part, and a lot was the timely intervention of the Vorlons, but maybe some of it was because some species felt the place was blessed?
And I thought Sheridan did get some similar behavior towards him -- which annoyed Garibaldi no end -- to the point that a bunch of alien ships came to his rescue on Earth in Season 4. Sure, Delenn talked them around, but they came to help one man.
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Estelyn
Regular
I must confess, I never noticed whether or not Sheridan's hair moved - since others have discussed that problem at length, I will comment on other matters.
Two people comment on Londo's change - Vir says the ambassador looks different, and Garibaldi says he"s "not the Londo I knew". I find the latter's attitude interesting - he recognized Londo's vulnerability underneath the mask of arrogance and harshness.
There are two mentions of B5 as hope - the only hope for the Narn ship, and Ivanova's "last best hope for victory" near the end. I like having her voice as narrator - it foreshadows the title sequence of the next season.
Another foreshadowing - Sheridan's speech about pride in his uniform. From future events, we already know that it won't be restored, but replaced.
I do like the fact that Sheridan once again beats Earth government by going by the book and quoting it at them.
Lots of significant details - Londo standing alone at the reception, for example, no one talking to him. And the fact that he sees nothing is interesting - the Shadows block out the light.
I like the two different terms for the Vorlons, used by Delenn and Sheridan - "guiding" vs. "manipulating". Kosh does seem to be a ladies' man, doesn't he?! It's Delenn and Lyta who are fascinated by him, while the men are sceptical.
I don't always notice the soundtrack, but this time I was aware of the angelic sounding music when Kosh comes to Sheridan's rescue. I liked the wing effect that was used - nothing quite definable, nor really solid. I must say though, I can't help but wonder about what happens in the eyes of the beholders here - are their eyes or their brains manipulated by the Vorlons? He can't himself appear as more than one thing at the same time, can he?
Two people comment on Londo's change - Vir says the ambassador looks different, and Garibaldi says he"s "not the Londo I knew". I find the latter's attitude interesting - he recognized Londo's vulnerability underneath the mask of arrogance and harshness.
There are two mentions of B5 as hope - the only hope for the Narn ship, and Ivanova's "last best hope for victory" near the end. I like having her voice as narrator - it foreshadows the title sequence of the next season.
Another foreshadowing - Sheridan's speech about pride in his uniform. From future events, we already know that it won't be restored, but replaced.
I do like the fact that Sheridan once again beats Earth government by going by the book and quoting it at them.
Lots of significant details - Londo standing alone at the reception, for example, no one talking to him. And the fact that he sees nothing is interesting - the Shadows block out the light.
I like the two different terms for the Vorlons, used by Delenn and Sheridan - "guiding" vs. "manipulating". Kosh does seem to be a ladies' man, doesn't he?! It's Delenn and Lyta who are fascinated by him, while the men are sceptical.
I don't always notice the soundtrack, but this time I was aware of the angelic sounding music when Kosh comes to Sheridan's rescue. I liked the wing effect that was used - nothing quite definable, nor really solid. I must say though, I can't help but wonder about what happens in the eyes of the beholders here - are their eyes or their brains manipulated by the Vorlons? He can't himself appear as more than one thing at the same time, can he?
vacantlook
Super Moderator
If I remember correctly, it is alluded to being telepathic manipulation from vorlons that make them look different to different people. And that doing so is exhausting to a vorlon; at the beginning of season three, Kosh had been spending some time recovering on board his ship.
Alioth
Regular
I missed that hint (that they had worshipped the Shadows) in all my viewings and readings. Was there something I missed (I often do find some new thing in repeat viewings)? Unless it had to do with
Spoiler for Technomage Trilogy (a big one):
And the Centauri had telepaths--and Vorlons were generally responsible for the emergence of telepaths in at least most of the younger races (although I think it was said to be "all" of them that had them, but I'm not sure). Were there naturally-evolved exceptions in some races? Otherwise, the Vorlons did alter them, in that way.
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Alioth
Regular
I'm not sure just how many directly witnessed the "divine intervention". Of those that only hear about it second-hand, there probably was a lot of skepticism, along with some believers. That there were some who were there, who saw or claimed they saw nothing (Londo might not have been the only one) would of course feed that skepticism as well.
I think the level of attention, number of pilgrims, and reveredness for B5 and Sheridan we do see was probably par for course for what such "miracles" (believe them or not) generally get. After Sheridan's "resurrection" later on, that attention and reverence grew though. What we're seeing are the beginnings of what might turn into a religion later on (I think "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" alluded to a religion around Sheridan's "divinity" growing further over the coming centuries--IIRC--and the "trinity" of "The One" did seem to imply that a religion would grow around their "great story", as I don't think it was coincidence that JMS presented it that way). But religions don't always (or even usually) take off among the masses overnight. Christianity didn't.
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babylonfan
Regular
Weren't the Drakh also telepathic? No cross species, but between themselves? Or was that more a Techno-mage electron-incantation style form of communcation? That is, more technological then genetic / evolutionary?
My impression is that the Centauri weren't involved with the Shadows or Vorlons prior to the time of B5. Morden talking to Londo was their first contact with them. It was an advantage for the Shadows that the enemy Londo had was the race without telepaths.
In dialogue, I'm pretty sure that we only ever hear that the Vorlons created human telepaths. There is the scene in "Secrets of the Soul" when Byron picks up Lyta's memories of the Vorlon homeworld that shows some other species but I can't recall which ones.
Jan
Regular
In "Secrets of the Soul" Byron said:
...so I suppose he got that from Lyta's memory of being in the tank. What I've never decided is whether that was actually Lyta's memory - when they added her gills, perhaps - or whehter it was similar to what she experienced when she scanned Kosh in "The Gathering" and was projecting herself into another person's memories.
Jan
Lennier's Tears
Regular
This is a fantastic season-ending episode. There's so much good stuff in it.
The Kosh reveal is the big one, I suppose. I still get excited about it every time. It's most exciting when I'm watching with someone new to B5, but even just by myself, it's a good time Ten years after this thread's discussion of whether Sheridan's hair moved, wind speed, and whether that scene looked wrong .. I don't have much to add, other than that in 2015 it most certainly does look wrong. Unless perhaps Kosh is using some telekinetic power to hold Sheridan up, instead of physically holding him by the arms ...
I love the Frederick Lantz visit! He's so kindly and grandfatherly and everyone believes things are going to go well, and then he does the opposite of what everyone expects! "We will at last know peace in our time!" A nice example of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, and perfectly realistic. Nothing is ever simply black and white in Babylon 5, and that's why it's great.
Welles and the nightwatch are great, too (why does he look so familiar??? Oh, right, Neroon). They are getting less subtle, and more creepy.
Keffer and the Shadow ship .. Very creepy and ominous. A great ending for the episode. I have a minor quibble with it, in that Keffer ejected the recording before the Shadow ship fired at him, yet the shooting part is included in the video. Maybe it was still recording as it was ejected, and only stopped when the connection between it and the starfury was broken when it exploded?
The Kosh reveal is the big one, I suppose. I still get excited about it every time. It's most exciting when I'm watching with someone new to B5, but even just by myself, it's a good time
Ten years after this thread's discussion of whether Sheridan's hair moved, wind speed, and whether that scene looked wrong .. I don't have much to add, other than that in 2015 it most certainly does look wrong. Unless perhaps Kosh is using some telekinetic power to hold Sheridan up, instead of physically holding him by the arms ...I love the Frederick Lantz visit! He's so kindly and grandfatherly and everyone believes things are going to go well, and then he does the opposite of what everyone expects! "We will at last know peace in our time!" A nice example of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, and perfectly realistic. Nothing is ever simply black and white in Babylon 5, and that's why it's great.
Welles and the nightwatch are great, too (why does he look so familiar??? Oh, right, Neroon). They are getting less subtle, and more creepy.
Keffer and the Shadow ship .. Very creepy and ominous. A great ending for the episode. I have a minor quibble with it, in that Keffer ejected the recording before the Shadow ship fired at him, yet the shooting part is included in the video. Maybe it was still recording as it was ejected, and only stopped when the connection between it and the starfury was broken when it exploded?
Looney
Regular
HAHAHA!!!!! I had to pop in because I just watched this episode again and I chuckled at one of the most awkward moments in B5 history and wanted to say something about it. Sheridan has just learned that Frederick Lantz has come to B5 to sign a Non-Aggression Treaty with the Centauri. So the entire time he is venting his anger and frustration to Ivanova, while she is going along doing the same thing, she is concealing gift for him behind her back and looking for an opening in the conversation to bring forth the her surprise. When you think about it is so priceless. Here are two people basically freaking out over the news they just learned, but one of them is concealing a gift for the other. It just seems so awkward and brilliantly real.
And the gift itself is a bit awkward under the circumstances. Yes it seems to be a poignant reminder, but is it something he should or would display in his office or quarters? I mean it is definitely something that would spark more negative reactions from the Minbari. They are already touchy about Sheridan and The Black Star, so what would happen if they learn he has an actual piece of the ship as a trophy?! Nothing ever comes of it, but if one were seeing the episode for the first time one might ponder that there could be future repercussions if the Minbari learn what Sheridan now owns. All around a brilliantly bit of nuance that adds to the B5 tapestry. :thumbsup:
And the gift itself is a bit awkward under the circumstances. Yes it seems to be a poignant reminder, but is it something he should or would display in his office or quarters? I mean it is definitely something that would spark more negative reactions from the Minbari. They are already touchy about Sheridan and The Black Star, so what would happen if they learn he has an actual piece of the ship as a trophy?! Nothing ever comes of it, but if one were seeing the episode for the first time one might ponder that there could be future repercussions if the Minbari learn what Sheridan now owns. All around a brilliantly bit of nuance that adds to the B5 tapestry. :thumbsup:
Jan
Regular
Looney
Regular
One does kind of have to wonder if Delenn ever sees it and finds out what it is.
Exactly my thinking. And by this point we know Sheridan has to think to himself that it can't really be something he could proudly display while on B5, especially in front of Delenn. And since everyone just seems to visit everyone else in their quarters he has to know he'll have to hide it there too. All and all could this actually be considered a thoughtless gesture on Ivanova's part? :wtf:
:guffaw:
We definitely don't get enough of Delenn and Sheridan's awkward conversations. I REALLY want to see the one where they discuss that one time during the Earth / MInbari War where she was going to have him executed and then changed her mind. The way I see it playing in my head is she whispers it in his ear in bed just before rolling over and saying goodnight.
