EpDis: The Very Long Night Of Londo Mollari

[Jan]

About Lennier. I wonder how the writer(s?) rationalized this turn of events. I don't think it's good writing (and definitely not worthy of the writing of B5's general level) to make a character take this kind of near-180-degree turnabout.
Obviously Lennier had loved Delenn for a long time. It's only human (minbarian?) to feel some degree of jealousy, and thus it's within the range of credibility that Lennier would decide to take the easy route by leaving. Considering that he's part of the religious caste and they should strive to conquer petty feelings, leaving is still a bit of strecth; however, understandable.
However, he's talking about what can only be interpreted as too much of testosterone. I'm gonna join the Rangers and learn to fight and face awful danger and oooooh boy, then I'm worthy of you, like the masculine hero you've now married to? What?? Is this supposed to be the Lennier we've known for the past 4 years? Without even a slightest, tiniest, microscopic HINT that his personality might include the seeds for something like this?
I'm sorry, I really am, but for me this is just bad writing. Was there some other-than-artistic reasons for doing this? Only one season to go, something dramatic had to be done with Lennier-character? I don't remember what's coming but reading your posts, I'm thinking something not good, so did they "have" to base his decision on something so outside his known character just to cause the future stuff to happen?
Still, I'm not liking it.

No slightest hint? I completely disagree. Didn't you ever wonder why Lennier was such an accomplished combat pilot? Didn't you ever wonder why not only Lennier but also Delenn were so comfortable facing multiple thus in Downbelow? Ever wonder why it was that they were able to crew the entire White Star Fleet from the Religious Caste? Why would it be such a stretch for him to want to join a band of monk-warriors when it was apparant that he'd already had training that way and that it was common for his caste to have had that training? Now if he'd wanted to join the Warrior Caste, that would have been a switch.

Bad writing? No, just not enough attention paid by the viewer, I think.

 

[Talvitar]

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I completely agree that Lennier had a hefty dose of the adventurer in him. If he had given as the reason for his leaving only a) that it pains him to watch Delenn and Sheridan together (which he knew or probably guessed that Delenn already knew), and b) that he wants to follow his heart because he knew that he had (also) the capability to be a good warrior (note 'warrior', not 'Warrior') - then I'd have nothing to complain about. It's the "Yes, in most ways," replies Lennier. "But I only wish to add a few more, to become more of what you may want me to be; more of what you may find..." That, and something else he said (I cannot recall the exact dialogue) hints that he, I don't know, would like to be seen / considered by Delenn as 'equal' to Sheridan, even rival her attention, that I find very hard to believe of Lennier, based on what I've seen.

I'm not saying I'm right That's only how I perceive it. And I'm willing to concede that it's impossible to know another person completely, to know all the myriad thought processes and undercurrents of feelings and motives that zigzag within us. I just think that in fiction it's not good writing if a viewer is thoroughly surprised after this long running time and having watched a main-ish character for four seasons.

Not gonna fight over this, however

 

[Jan]

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I completely agree that Lennier had a hefty dose of the adventurer in him. If he had given as the reason for his leaving only a) that it pains him to watch Delenn and Sheridan together (which he knew or probably guessed that Delenn already knew), and b) that he wants to follow his heart because he knew that he had (also) the capability to be a good warrior (note 'warrior', not 'Warrior') - then I'd have nothing to complain about. It's the "Yes, in most ways," replies Lennier. "But I only wish to add a few more, to become more of what you may want me to be; more of what you may find..." That, and something else he said (I cannot recall the exact dialogue) hints that he, I don't know, would like to be seen / considered by Delenn as 'equal' to Sheridan, even rival her attention, that I find very hard to believe of Lennier, based on what I've seen.

I'm not saying I'm right That's only how I perceive it. And I'm willing to concede that it's impossible to know another person completely, to know all the myriad thought processes and undercurrents of feelings and motives that zigzag within us. I just think that in fiction it's not good writing if a viewer is thoroughly surprised after this long running time and having watched a main-ish character for four seasons.

Not gonna fight over this, however

 

[Jan]

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I completely agree that Lennier had a hefty dose of the adventurer in him. If he had given as the reason for his leaving only a) that it pains him to watch Delenn and Sheridan together (which he knew or probably guessed that Delenn already knew), and b) that he wants to follow his heart because he knew that he had (also) the capability to be a good warrior (note 'warrior', not 'Warrior') - then I'd have nothing to complain about. It's the "Yes, in most ways," replies Lennier. "But I only wish to add a few more, to become more of what you may want me to be; more of what you may find..." That, and something else he said (I cannot recall the exact dialogue) hints that he, I don't know, would like to be seen / considered by Delenn as 'equal' to Sheridan, even rival her attention, that I find very hard to believe of Lennier, based on what I've seen.

I'm not saying I'm right That's only how I perceive it. And I'm willing to concede that it's impossible to know another person completely, to know all the myriad thought processes and undercurrents of feelings and motives that zigzag within us. I just think that in fiction it's not good writing if a viewer is thoroughly surprised after this long running time and having watched a main-ish character for four seasons.

Not gonna fight over this, however

Not fighting, discussing. I think that that dialogue is a perhaps too-blatant signal that Lennier's admiration/devotion/love for Delenn had developed into obsession. Or not too blatant? I think that Lennier's feelings turned to obsession when Sheridan came back from Z'ha'dum. You see right then that if looks could have killed, the one from Lennier would have had John falling dead off of that catwalk. Perhaps he'd managed to delude himself that he was okay that Delenn was 'destined for another' but I never bought that as being really true. And though she was under no obligation to do so, I think it was a bit unkind when Delenn didn't send him away after he declared his love on the White Star against all the traditions of their people. In his mind, I think that gave him false hope that there was a chance for him with her and in the end caused his momentary weakness of leaving Sheridan and the ranger in danger.

 

[Talvitar]

^I agree with you about the role of Delenn here. She knew about Lennier's feelings and might have guessed how difficult the whole situation was for him. Did she have such absolute trust & faith in the stern mental abilities of someone from the Religious caste that she thought that those powers of controlling feelings would able Lennier to handle things, to "get over it". Or did she think that oh what a wonderful chance for Lennier to "grow"?
Or did she think about Lennier at all, really? There *was* a war going on. Her role was huge as was Sheridan's, and they were (falling) in love - how much emotional energy did she have for Lennier.
Unkind is a harsh word, I don't think it was "premeditated unkindness". Thoughtlessness, more likely, causing the unkindness. Even Delenn can make serious mistakes.
Is there something in the Minbari culture to prevent Delenn taking an active part and starting a real, honest discussion with Lennier about the elephant in the room (I mean already earlier)? I think it would've suited her role as ambassador and leader of religious caste to bring it up, even though it would've surely been very awkward.
(and had they done so and talked it through, we would've missed entire plot lines... yeah, not talking like any sensible normal people would, is a very handy tool in fictional plots...)

 

[Jan]

^I agree with you about the role of Delenn here. She knew about Lennier's feelings and might have guessed how difficult the whole situation was for him. Did she have such absolute trust & faith in the stern mental abilities of someone from the Religious caste that she thought that those powers of controlling feelings would able Lennier to handle things, to "get over it". Or did she think that oh what a wonderful chance for Lennier to "grow"?
Or did she think about Lennier at all, really? There *was* a war going on. Her role was huge as was Sheridan's, and they were (falling) in love - how much emotional energy did she have for Lennier.
Unkind is a harsh word, I don't think it was "premeditated unkindness". Thoughtlessness, more likely, causing the unkindness. Even Delenn can make serious mistakes.
Is there something in the Minbari culture to prevent Delenn taking an active part and starting a real, honest discussion with Lennier about the elephant in the room (I mean already earlier)? I think it would've suited her role as ambassador and leader of religious caste to bring it up, even though it would've surely been very awkward.
(and had they done so and talked it through, we would've missed entire plot lines... yeah, not talking like any sensible normal people would, is a very handy tool in fictional plots...)

Good question as to whether she thought of Lennier at all. And I don't think she was unkind consciously, but the resut was the same. She really did seem to accept his devotion as her due. But when I really think about it, I think that she tended to cling to Lennier because he accepted her change after the Chrysalis when neither the humans or Minbari did. He was her one, true close friend after Draal took over the Great Machine and we never heard from Shaal Mayan again. I think she clung to that acceptance from a feeling of lonliness after so much rejection.

As I often say, there are no perfect people on B5!

 

[Looney]

And one key point of fact to focus on was that this is fictional. By that I mean we don't actually know how Minbari perceive these things. Maybe Lennier's words and actions are very typical of how any Minbari would react. The same could be said for Delenn's reactions to Lennier. Only JMS can tell us what his intent was. For all we know everything that happens with any relationship involving other species on Babylon 5 is done with the intent of showing how they react as a species, not how humans think they should react. This is a trap JMS has lured us all into. If we have questions about Minbari character's motives, words, and action he can always say, "That is how the Minbari do it." And the same holds for all of the alien species, a huge them of B5.