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EpDis: There All The Honor Lies
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Hmm.
The pak'ma'ra sing on Babylon 5.
The Ood sing on Doctor Who.
What is it about singing tentacle-faces?
The pak'ma'ra sing on Babylon 5.
The Ood sing on Doctor Who.
What is it about singing tentacle-faces?
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Looney
Regular
Wow! Good discussion. I never placed it as being Pak'Ma'Ra, but I definitely see the reasoning.
So on my scale I rate THERE ALL THE HONOR LIES as an 'A' Episode. It has some weak moments, but I feel it also has some outstanding moments. My biggest disappointment with the episode is that the Emporium doesn't last past this episode. I loved that concept and it shocks me JMS only allowed it to last one episode. I understand that he might not have wanted it to seem like they were pushing merchandise, but still it was a great set and I would have bought out the entire store.
Such a great set and such a good idea should have lasted. Plus I look at that sign and it reminds me of the TNT Mall Tour and what might have been. It also reminds me of all the Official Fan Club Merchandise I missed out on. And BTW, there is a T-Shirt visible in the outer kiosk of the Emporium that I'm pretty sure was available for a time. Others would know better than I do, but my crazy memory keeps saying it was actually a t-shirt you could buy back then. Of course, my memory could just be remembering that "5" symbol because it was always one of my favorite Babylon 5 emblems.
The Vir stuff is great. We get another instance of Londo having to deal with a situation his ambition and ego have created. I love hearing what Vir is dealing with.
The Sheridan/Minbari stuff is pretty good. I REALLY like that Lennier conducting his own investigation. I love the moment of perfect beauty for what it is and for how absolutely out of left field it is. And one of my favorite parts of it is the shot of Kosh just standing in the disheveled corridor listening. I feel like he could easily clean up that mess. :guffaw: Plus the orientation of the shot makes me think of the shock of a random Lurker coming around the corner and just seeing the Vorlon standing in that corridor. :guffaw:
BTW, have I mentioned lately how much I love the Babylon 5 encyclopedia?! Well I do! :thumbsup:
So on my scale I rate THERE ALL THE HONOR LIES as an 'A' Episode. It has some weak moments, but I feel it also has some outstanding moments. My biggest disappointment with the episode is that the Emporium doesn't last past this episode. I loved that concept and it shocks me JMS only allowed it to last one episode. I understand that he might not have wanted it to seem like they were pushing merchandise, but still it was a great set and I would have bought out the entire store.
Such a great set and such a good idea should have lasted. Plus I look at that sign and it reminds me of the TNT Mall Tour and what might have been. It also reminds me of all the Official Fan Club Merchandise I missed out on. And BTW, there is a T-Shirt visible in the outer kiosk of the Emporium that I'm pretty sure was available for a time. Others would know better than I do, but my crazy memory keeps saying it was actually a t-shirt you could buy back then. Of course, my memory could just be remembering that "5" symbol because it was always one of my favorite Babylon 5 emblems. The Vir stuff is great. We get another instance of Londo having to deal with a situation his ambition and ego have created. I love hearing what Vir is dealing with.
The Sheridan/Minbari stuff is pretty good. I REALLY like that Lennier conducting his own investigation. I love the moment of perfect beauty for what it is and for how absolutely out of left field it is. And one of my favorite parts of it is the shot of Kosh just standing in the disheveled corridor listening. I feel like he could easily clean up that mess. :guffaw: Plus the orientation of the shot makes me think of the shock of a random Lurker coming around the corner and just seeing the Vorlon standing in that corridor. :guffaw:
BTW, have I mentioned lately how much I love the Babylon 5 encyclopedia?! Well I do! :thumbsup:
Looney
Regular
I forgot to add two things.
I love the Lennier investigation because of the interaction with Garibaldi, but I also love it because it gives us some slight glimpse into where Lennier is coming from. And I think I love this aspect most because it is a reminder that for all of their fancy intentions Minbari will lie. I think that is a great thing about this episode. It is a reminder that the Minbari strive for this honorable moral cultural ideal, but that becomes a struggle when the realities of life get in the way.
The second thing is
I JUST REALIZED THAT THE LAST POSTER BEFORE ME IN THIS THREAD WAS ALEXA. NOW I KNOW WHAT SHE WAS DOING BEFORE AMAZON GOT A HOLD OF HER. :guffaw:
I love the Lennier investigation because of the interaction with Garibaldi, but I also love it because it gives us some slight glimpse into where Lennier is coming from. And I think I love this aspect most because it is a reminder that for all of their fancy intentions Minbari will lie. I think that is a great thing about this episode. It is a reminder that the Minbari strive for this honorable moral cultural ideal, but that becomes a struggle when the realities of life get in the way.
The second thing is
I JUST REALIZED THAT THE LAST POSTER BEFORE ME IN THIS THREAD WAS ALEXA. NOW I KNOW WHAT SHE WAS DOING BEFORE AMAZON GOT A HOLD OF HER. :guffaw:
Lennier's Tears
Regular
For me, the most intriguing aspect of this episode is the glimpses of information we get about Minbari clans. We never really learn more about them, do we? It seems like they are VERY important, but it's not necessarily immediately obvious what clan someone belongs to. Prior to this episode I think we only learned about two other clans, both Warrior Caste ones: the Star Riders and the Wind Swords. Presumably Religious Caste clans are a bit different. I'd love to know more!
I'm somewhat puzzled about the reactions to the gift shop. To my 21st century mind, the concept doesn't seem that weird or offensive. What place in our present does NOT have a gift shop? Clearly capitalism is alive and well in the B5 universe, so ... I am confused. That said, some of the stuff actually for sale in that shop .... Who ever thought THAT would be a good idea?? Action figures of actual diplomats?? Did Earth not just get out of a war that almost wiped out the entire human race, all based on a misunderstanding? I hope whoever signed off on those lost their job over this The "JS" teddy bear seemed among the less offensive stuff in there ... And what kind of asshole spaces a teddy bear??
As for the whole "get rid of Sheridan" plot and investigation: I was a little surprised that Sheridan, being the accused, was actually allowed to go and talk to the witness himself. Presumably that privilege isn't extended to just any accused person, he just gets to do it because he's the Captain. Sheridan wants to keep the motive a secret so as to protect Lennier's clan's honor, in exchange for a statement from Ashan about what he really saw. That's pretty noble and all, but aren't people going to know what clan Levell was anyway, and isn't that going to still dishonor the clan? I was also suddenly wondering if Lennier has ever forgiven Sheridan for the Black Star. How does he feel about this whole thing, I wonder.
Count me among the fans of "One moment of perfect beauty." I also always think of that scene when Vir talks about hearing the Pak'ma'ra. But, I was never really convinced it was actually them. I can sort of buy them doing the Gregorian chant because they have a repertoire that includes music from all kinds of worlds and are singing for a human audience in this case, but ... I dunno. I actually kind of wonder if that whole thing even really happened. There's a scene of Kosh waiting outside the door, where the music can be heard, but does that mean it really did happen? I don't know. Kosh could easily just project something into Sheridan's mind. It seems a little weird that there would be this group of people just hanging out in an abandoned part of Downbelow, just waiting for someone to give them a trinket so they can start singing. Or, of course, Kosh arranged for them to be there.
So many questions!
I'm somewhat puzzled about the reactions to the gift shop. To my 21st century mind, the concept doesn't seem that weird or offensive. What place in our present does NOT have a gift shop? Clearly capitalism is alive and well in the B5 universe, so ... I am confused. That said, some of the stuff actually for sale in that shop .... Who ever thought THAT would be a good idea?? Action figures of actual diplomats?? Did Earth not just get out of a war that almost wiped out the entire human race, all based on a misunderstanding? I hope whoever signed off on those lost their job over this
The "JS" teddy bear seemed among the less offensive stuff in there ... And what kind of asshole spaces a teddy bear?? As for the whole "get rid of Sheridan" plot and investigation: I was a little surprised that Sheridan, being the accused, was actually allowed to go and talk to the witness himself. Presumably that privilege isn't extended to just any accused person, he just gets to do it because he's the Captain. Sheridan wants to keep the motive a secret so as to protect Lennier's clan's honor, in exchange for a statement from Ashan about what he really saw. That's pretty noble and all, but aren't people going to know what clan Levell was anyway, and isn't that going to still dishonor the clan? I was also suddenly wondering if Lennier has ever forgiven Sheridan for the Black Star. How does he feel about this whole thing, I wonder.
Count me among the fans of "One moment of perfect beauty." I also always think of that scene when Vir talks about hearing the Pak'ma'ra. But, I was never really convinced it was actually them. I can sort of buy them doing the Gregorian chant because they have a repertoire that includes music from all kinds of worlds and are singing for a human audience in this case, but ... I dunno. I actually kind of wonder if that whole thing even really happened. There's a scene of Kosh waiting outside the door, where the music can be heard, but does that mean it really did happen? I don't know. Kosh could easily just project something into Sheridan's mind. It seems a little weird that there would be this group of people just hanging out in an abandoned part of Downbelow, just waiting for someone to give them a trinket so they can start singing. Or, of course, Kosh arranged for them to be there.
So many questions!
Looney
Regular
For me, the most intriguing aspect of this episode is the glimpses of information we get about Minbari clans. We never really learn more about them, do we? It seems like they are VERY important, but it's not necessarily immediately obvious what clan someone belongs to. Prior to this episode I think we only learned about two other clans, both Warrior Caste ones: the Star Riders and the Wind Swords. Presumably Religious Caste clans are a bit different. I'd love to know more!
I'm somewhat puzzled about the reactions to the gift shop. To my 21st century mind, the concept doesn't seem that weird or offensive. What place in our present does NOT have a gift shop? Clearly capitalism is alive and well in the B5 universe, so ... I am confused. That said, some of the stuff actually for sale in that shop .... Who ever thought THAT would be a good idea?? Action figures of actual diplomats?? Did Earth not just get out of a war that almost wiped out the entire human race, all based on a misunderstanding? I hope whoever signed off on those lost their job over this
As for the whole "get rid of Sheridan" plot and investigation: I was a little surprised that Sheridan, being the accused, was actually allowed to go and talk to the witness himself. Presumably that privilege isn't extended to just any accused person, he just gets to do it because he's the Captain. Sheridan wants to keep the motive a secret so as to protect Lennier's clan's honor, in exchange for a statement from Ashan about what he really saw. That's pretty noble and all, but aren't people going to know what clan Levell was anyway, and isn't that going to still dishonor the clan? I was also suddenly wondering if Lennier has ever forgiven Sheridan for the Black Star. How does he feel about this whole thing, I wonder.
Count me among the fans of "One moment of perfect beauty." I also always think of that scene when Vir talks about hearing the Pak'ma'ra. But, I was never really convinced it was actually them. I can sort of buy them doing the Gregorian chant because they have a repertoire that includes music from all kinds of worlds and are singing for a human audience in this case, but ... I dunno. I actually kind of wonder if that whole thing even really happened. There's a scene of Kosh waiting outside the door, where the music can be heard, but does that mean it really did happen? I don't know. Kosh could easily just project something into Sheridan's mind. It seems a little weird that there would be this group of people just hanging out in an abandoned part of Downbelow, just waiting for someone to give them a trinket so they can start singing. Or, of course, Kosh arranged for them to be there.
So many questions!
Yes so many questions. I will address thoughts on the gift shop. I think the key reason the JS teddy bear was offensive to Sheridan is the same reason the figure was offensive to Londo, it undermines their position of authority. Much of this episode deals with keeping up appearances right down to the plot against Sheridan. Keeping up appearances would be crucial to people dealing in diplomacy. Something viewed as a toy based on the image or likeness of someone trying to project an image of authority and power would naturally be met with a negative reaction. How can you take a military governor seriously when you are holding the teddy bear version of that military governor? :guffaw:
And now I am out of time......
(Side note: When I previewed this post the"r" and the "n: in governor appears like an "m". I did not put an "m" there.
)
Karajorma
Regular
What's strange is that Lavell is described as being Warrior Caste and yet is also of the Third Fane of Chudomo.
Which makes me wonder, Delenn tells Neroon in Legacies that being religious caste by mother takes precidence over having a father who is warrior caste.Could it be that warrior caste are keeping their clans pure by not marrying religious caste women? If so there might not be any religious caste clans.
Lennier's Tears
Regular
You're right! I totally forgot that Levell is Warrior Caste. Even more questions!
Well sure. I could see that. But, it doesn't actually look like him at all, and it's not supposed to! It's supposed to look like a teddy bear! It doesn't even have an Earthforce uniform, and it's not labeled as "Captain." It's just a bear in a baseball shirt with his initials. I understand that there are real world reasons for that rather than in-universe ones (as per the Lurker's Guide
), which also explain why the baseball shirt looks suspiciously late 20th century-ish (not that I know anything about the evolution of baseball uniforms!). It doesn't seem nearly as offensive as say, having a collection of masks in there so customers can dress up as other races, because .. yikes!