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EpDis: TKO
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
Sindatur
Regular
Even the Ivanova part of the episode mourning for her father?
Elipsis
Regular
I still thought it was pretty painful. If Ivanova had a part in the other story and it was effecting her in some way it would have been more relevent (similar to the way Sheridan's "beauty in the dark" session with Kosh helped him in There All the Honor Lies) It was ok as character development but it seemed out of place somehow, and I didn't find it nearly as interesting as the actual death of her father.
dreamer
Member
I rather like TKO, but then again I don't think that the first season episode Infection is at all that what some might moan. It had a very valid concept.
Walker Smith's character was rather off with the tone of the series, but the story wasn't half bad - an ex contender trying to get back in the game by competing in a sport where no human has competed before. Honestly, I don't see any better way to promote yourself back to the show and how is that not a story worth telling? I mean, there will and always has been human martial arts champions, but to be the first to fight in something no other human has done before? That will get attention from all directions because first of all, it suggests that you're tougher than other humans and I bet that every single serious fighter would try to fight that guy to prove otherwise.
Also, expecting realistic choreography is nothing but unrealistic - even though when a fight scene breaks... about anywhere, you have everyone doing jump kicks and backflips and whatever. I agree however that the story was a bit too lightly told since there could've been a lot there, but this isn't the new BSG and things just aren't very heavy in the show.
Hating the Ivanova story because of one's own view on religions is a bit foolish. I hoped too that Susan wouldt've sat shiva, but how wrong can one millionbillion people be? I mean, in the end Susan also felt that having people close to you was a good idea when you're hurting. That's how Susan's character was portrayed, no matter how remote a russian she has been occasionally portrayed before. Also, how else a rabbi should've behaved? From a writer's point of view it would've been rather useless to throw in a unorthodox rabbi who would've agreed with Susan 100% and not do what they usually do.
And these are just my immediate thoughts about your thoughts of the episode.
"See good in bad. I like."
- Some guy on Fifth Element
Walker Smith's character was rather off with the tone of the series, but the story wasn't half bad - an ex contender trying to get back in the game by competing in a sport where no human has competed before. Honestly, I don't see any better way to promote yourself back to the show and how is that not a story worth telling? I mean, there will and always has been human martial arts champions, but to be the first to fight in something no other human has done before? That will get attention from all directions because first of all, it suggests that you're tougher than other humans and I bet that every single serious fighter would try to fight that guy to prove otherwise.
Also, expecting realistic choreography is nothing but unrealistic - even though when a fight scene breaks... about anywhere, you have everyone doing jump kicks and backflips and whatever. I agree however that the story was a bit too lightly told since there could've been a lot there, but this isn't the new BSG and things just aren't very heavy in the show.
Hating the Ivanova story because of one's own view on religions is a bit foolish. I hoped too that Susan wouldt've sat shiva, but how wrong can one millionbillion people be? I mean, in the end Susan also felt that having people close to you was a good idea when you're hurting. That's how Susan's character was portrayed, no matter how remote a russian she has been occasionally portrayed before. Also, how else a rabbi should've behaved? From a writer's point of view it would've been rather useless to throw in a unorthodox rabbi who would've agreed with Susan 100% and not do what they usually do.
And these are just my immediate thoughts about your thoughts of the episode.
"See good in bad. I like."
- Some guy on Fifth Element
Cell
Regular
I didn't hate the Ivanova storyline, it just wasn't great. It was a decent storyline that was acceptable TV, but it wasn't anything special. TKO can thank that storyline for even garnering a D+, because without it this was a definite F episode and probably the worst of the series, behind even Infection.
As for my feeling on the religious issue of Shiva being forced, they are what they are. I thought it was terrible how that aspect was handled. I have no problem with Ivanova deciding to sit Shiva after all, but I didn't like the way the episode hammered home "Rabbi Koslov is right, you are wrong, sit Shiva or you are a bad person." Maybe you didn't get that vibe or pick that up, and that's cool, but I couldn't stand how heavy handed the episode was about religion, not a trait usually found in B5.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I think the real point was not that she sit Shiva specifically, but that she stop suppressing/denying her emotions, and express them.
I've already explained, often enough, in other threads, why I think TKO is actually a good ep, because of the Mutai Do story line, so I won't repeat that again.
I've already explained, often enough, in other threads, why I think TKO is actually a good ep, because of the Mutai Do story line, so I won't repeat that again.
dreamer
Member
Yeah, I did, and like you said that it was "acceptable TV", I don't think that anyone could've watched the episode and not expect things turn out how they did. Interestingly enough, if Susan would've stayed firm and perhaps even distance herself from everyone even more by telling them one by one that it was none of their concern, I would've rated that episode to my top 10 or something immediately. Not so much because a particular religion would've gotten a bitch slap, but mostly because it really would've established her character great deal more. I loved the cynical and pessimistic occasional Ivanova, and a degree of dysfunction over relationships would've gotten a big welcome from me.
Alexa
Regular
I really liked the Ivanova part, esp seeing her call the Rabbi 'uncle'. It brought a real softness and humanity to her character, which, up until this point, had been reserved and hard,esp in the first few eps. I didn`t think she did the sobbing very effectively though when she broke down crying. It just didn`t ring true for me, but the other scenes were, I thought, very well done.
The other plot line, well, I hated it. I`m not a sports fan, and this just seemed too much like a rehash of all the bad sports movies I had tried to sit through with my ex. The "stroke off" line was funny, even though it was not intended to be. It was just so bad, I had to laugh.
The other plot line, well, I hated it. I`m not a sports fan, and this just seemed too much like a rehash of all the bad sports movies I had tried to sit through with my ex. The "stroke off" line was funny, even though it was not intended to be. It was just so bad, I had to laugh.
GKarsEye
Regular
Recoil once wrote a really great post defending the A story of this episode while the rest of us were shitting all over it and I've since come around to his point of view.
Also I've since come to love fighting and sports movies and stories actually and I watch Rocky like very other month so I guess I'm biased now, but I like this episode.
The actor that played the alien that acted as coach in this episode comes back in season 3 as the Nightwatch creep that kidnaps Delenn and a Minbari captain in season 3.
Also I've since come to love fighting and sports movies and stories actually and I watch Rocky like very other month so I guess I'm biased now, but I like this episode.
The actor that played the alien that acted as coach in this episode comes back in season 3 as the Nightwatch creep that kidnaps Delenn and a Minbari captain in season 3.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I'm not at all a sports fan, but I have defended the A story several times. It is about racism. Walker-Smith, black human, calls the aliens "snake heads," a racist epithet. The aliens of the Mutai Doh are also racist, which is why they won't let humans participate. Eventually, they learn to see each other as equals. That's the simple description, 'cause I'm too lazy to search for the better ones I've written...
Estelyn
Regular
I had to look up "TKO" because I was unfamiliar with that combination of letters. Does it mean "technical knockout" in this context?
I could have missed the fight parts of this episode without even a bit of regret. It did not interest me and it added nothing to the B5 universe, as far as I'm concerned. Granted, I am one of those people (we do exist!) who has never had the least desire to see a Rocky movie or anything similar.
The Ivanova part of the plot did bring closure to her loss and an opportunity to show emotion differently than normal for her. I liked the aspect of Sinclair's friendship that comes to the foreground. Whether that is enough to get me to watch this episode repeatedly is dubious though.
I could have missed the fight parts of this episode without even a bit of regret. It did not interest me and it added nothing to the B5 universe, as far as I'm concerned. Granted, I am one of those people (we do exist!) who has never had the least desire to see a Rocky movie or anything similar.
The Ivanova part of the plot did bring closure to her loss and an opportunity to show emotion differently than normal for her. I liked the aspect of Sinclair's friendship that comes to the foreground. Whether that is enough to get me to watch this episode repeatedly is dubious though.
Lennier's Tears
Regular
Ehh, TKO. I have never gone so far as to skip it, and I likely won't, just because I like to watch things in the proper order, but if I HAD to make a list of skippable episodes, I'm thinking this one would be at the top of the list. I don't find the A plot interesting enough to be an A plot. If it were a B plot alongside a very exciting A plot I might not have minded. Maybe. I'm just not that into boxing stories, or "disgraced fighter redeems himself" or whatever it is.
I can sort of appreciate some of the things they were trying to do here, like the lingo. Someone put a fair bit of effort into creating this slang that makes conversation between Garibaldi and Walker Smith almost difficult to understand. I can also kind of appreciate the general sentiment they were going for with the whole "humans need to butt out of this because they're butting into everything and we don't like it", but that is then sort of ruined by having a young Centauri enthusiastically nodding along to some unidentified alien who is expressing this sentiment. A Centauri! Because they're not busy trying to conquer everything in the known universe.
I'm also not really buying the sudden transformation of Walker Smith from some guy who casually throws out racial slurs to guy who respects alien traditions, but ehh, I guess I can deal.
As for the Ivanova plot .. it's alright. It makes me uncomfortable to watch everyone (ok, just the rabbi and Sinclair, but it feels like EVERYONE) butting into her life like that. I understand that they're doing it because they care about her and they can tell she's suppressing some things and she'd feel better if she expressed her grief but ... uncomfortable! I'd be way more pissed than she was if someone from my past came into my (very far from home) workplace and went behind my back to discuss my private life with my boss. That's not to say I think that's a bad storyline. It's exactly the kind of thing people do
I like the story Ivanova tells about going to the reading with her father. It's such a small thing, but it's great background stuff.
Also, I agree with Estelyn that Sinclair is great in this. He's showing so much compassion and caring with pretty much no words.
I can sort of appreciate some of the things they were trying to do here, like the lingo. Someone put a fair bit of effort into creating this slang that makes conversation between Garibaldi and Walker Smith almost difficult to understand. I can also kind of appreciate the general sentiment they were going for with the whole "humans need to butt out of this because they're butting into everything and we don't like it", but that is then sort of ruined by having a young Centauri enthusiastically nodding along to some unidentified alien who is expressing this sentiment. A Centauri! Because they're not busy trying to conquer everything in the known universe.
I'm also not really buying the sudden transformation of Walker Smith from some guy who casually throws out racial slurs to guy who respects alien traditions, but ehh, I guess I can deal.
As for the Ivanova plot .. it's alright. It makes me uncomfortable to watch everyone (ok, just the rabbi and Sinclair, but it feels like EVERYONE) butting into her life like that. I understand that they're doing it because they care about her and they can tell she's suppressing some things and she'd feel better if she expressed her grief but ... uncomfortable! I'd be way more pissed than she was if someone from my past came into my (very far from home) workplace and went behind my back to discuss my private life with my boss. That's not to say I think that's a bad storyline. It's exactly the kind of thing people do
I like the story Ivanova tells about going to the reading with her father. It's such a small thing, but it's great background stuff.
Also, I agree with Estelyn that Sinclair is great in this. He's showing so much compassion and caring with pretty much no words.
One thing that did always stand out for me relative to Trek at the time was how much better the physical fighting was on B5. Trek normally descending into the infamous Starfleet "double axehandle" that KOed Klingons instantly where as in B5 we get some pretty well choreographed scenes with some decent skill on display.
I spose it was helped by having a lot of the fighting on B5 being done by minor characters, a lot of whome I'd imagine were stunt men first rather than actors.
I spose it was helped by having a lot of the fighting on B5 being done by minor characters, a lot of whome I'd imagine were stunt men first rather than actors.
Dorvo
Member
Dunno why, but I'm strangely fond of this episode, I think because it's particularly well acted by the guest stars. I really like the boxer (don't have the name at my fingertips) and the wonderful actor who plays rabbi Koslov (he recently passed away) is fantastic. Other things I like: the foreshadowing (Garibaldi, watch your back), and the general idea that humans are often seen by the other aliens as aggressive, pushy and culturally insensitive (the same charges, tellingly, that the human xenophobes in the series seem to level at aliens). It builds well on Ivanova's "emotionally stoppered" character, which gets so much development later in the series. So this one is a win for me, if not in my top picks.
Springer
Regular
Sadly the actor that played Walker Smith, Greg McKinney, also passed away in 1998.
