First Ones Mysteries - exchanges of ideas needed

[A_M_Swallow]

Not sure about the Walkers of Sigma 957 and the Vorlons. I get the feeling that the Vorlons were rather arrogant, that they resembled the human race in that regard--they reached out too far, too fast (i.e. Thirdspace issues here when they tried to become gods.) I think that's why Kosh had a "thing" for the humans, perhaps they reminded him of his own race so long ago. And, we see that the human race (after much strife and evolving) does eventually become very much like the Vorlons (encounter suit and all.) Though the humans seemed to have retained their solid form in the future, like Lorien's race.

I would wager that the walkers and the vorlons are just two of those "first ones" that never quite got along. =) I'd love to hear other ideas, though, on that one. And I'm not sure that Vorlon technology is neccessarily less "uber" than the First Ones, but you get enough First Ones together and it can certainly take out a Vorlon mother-ship. =)

The Shadows method of forcing evolution is to make the races fight. All the other First Ones were brought up by the Shadows. So all of the First Ones have spent the last 'N' million years fighting each other.

 

[fisheggs]

Interesting topic. One thing skirted about but not brought up is population counts, ie, how many of whom are left. In Into The Fire, we see many Shadow ships, lots of Vorlon ships, but only one each of the other First One ships, and only as the Vorlon planet killer prepares to engage.

Lorien mentioned to Susan that as "The/A" very first one, it was immortal, but that it was not omnipotent or invulnerable. It seems to me that Lorien (JMS) suggested that there was a link between longevity and population.

Any thoughts?:beer:

 

[Alluveal]

I would think that after a while, someone who is immortal would grow tired of living. All things things they experienced, witnessed, saw. Probably a bit tiring to be immortal. Perhaps going beyond the rim offers some kind of rest/peace. I imagine the First Ones who stayed behind (in their single ships) were probably the last ones of their kind who hadn't yet gone beyond the rim. Perhaps they were waiting/watching for something?

 

[Truth_Seeker]

The only example of life in the Universe that we know so far is life on Earth.As we observe the different kinds of living creatures we see that the less evolved animals are much more in quantity than the more complex life forms.Let's assume that the intelligent life in the universe follows the same principle.The more a race evolves the less individuals it has.Of course it's only a theory.Maybe we need a biologist to explain it to us.

 

[vacantlook]

I would think that after a while, someone who is immortal would grow tired of living. All things things they experienced, witnessed, saw. Probably a bit tiring to be immortal....

That's one of the more profound moments Lorien has when he's talking to Ivanova:

"To live on as we have is to leave behind joy, and love, and companionship, because we know it to be transitory, of the moment. We know it will to ash. Only those, whose lives are brief can imagine that love is eternal. You should embrace that remarkable illusion. It may be the greatest gift your race has ever received."

He sounds nearly heartbroken while saying it.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

In "Deathwalker" the younger races were trying to achieve immortality at all costs but they did not realise that it could be a huge burden.I remember this classic movie "Highlander" where the prize for the last one was the ability to die.

 

[joyUnbounded]

This is of course my first post and as such, although I have read this entire thread, I am y be treading over already well walked ground. But, how similar are the Vorlons and Shadows biologically? In Interludes and Examinations Kosh is "torn apart" by actual Shadows. But the Shadows, in spite of their name, appear to be extremely sold insect like creatures where as the shadows appear to be "pure" energy? Could it be that like the Shadows us technology to render themselves invisible the Vorlons also use technology to allow them to pass through walls, exist and live in completely alien environments and so on? I am really asking this to tap some knowledge and opinions as I am new to B5.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Hello and wellcome to the forum!

My opinoin is that both the Shadows and the Vorlons have evolved to pure energy.As we know energy can convert to matter and matter back to energy.So I suppose that when they focus they can produce enough energy to make their bodies solid for a while.

 

[joyUnbounded]

Hello an wellcome to the forum!

My opinoin is that both the Shadows and the Vorlons have evolved to pure energy.As we know energy can convert to matter and matter back to energy.So I suppose that when they focus they can produce enough energy to make their bodies solid for a while.

I am not so sure. There is no suggestion at all that the Shadows had evolved into pure energy. And thinking on it there is no suggestion that the Vorlons use technology to alter their physical state, so scrap my thoughts on that one. Again there is the suggestion that the Shadows lack telepathic abilities, important i would think because it suggest a level of cognitive development that would suggest that evolutionary destination; or at least a propensity towards such beings being able to evolve into pure energy as they are essentially using energy to project themselves beyond their bodies. Note the results of genetic testing on Jason Ironheart. Again the Vorlons show that this is not a problem. Kosh appears in several drams, the Vorlons knew instantly of his death and they seeded telepathy in other races. Additionally there are two other things that suggest that they lack such an evolution in the Shadows- they communicate with their own operative, Morton, via their form of verbalization- long high pitched whispers and squeaks and some such. And they live in cities, with tower blocks, streets and other buildings.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

The Shadows are the oldest of the First Ones exept of Lorien's race.I think that the buildings on Z'Ha'Dum are the remains from the time when they had physical bodies(millions of years ago) but they kept them in good condition as historical monuments.Some of the buildings are used by their servants(Drakh,the crew of the Icarus and others).It's a mystery whether the Shadows are telepathic or not.The fact that they use the younger races telepaths to operate their ships is not a proof that they lack such abilities.They communicate with Morden using their language because Morden is not a telepath so he could not answer them telepathically.

 

[joyUnbounded]

Unimportant as to whether or not he is a telephath, they could simply read his replies. Or genetically alter him to be one. After all they must have done something to him to make him able to understand their language. It is said that telepaths amongst the younger races where made by the Vorlons as an exta weapon against the Shadows. We are also told that the Shadows install telepaths into their ships to see if they can counter telepathic interferences. No, I sincerely believe them no to have evolved that far. Though I do concede to your point that they rebuild their cities not both to house allies and honor Lorien, they only reason they return to Za'Ha'Dum.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

I don't think that the series give us a straight answer whether the Shadows are telepathic or not but they don't seem to me less evolved than the Vorlons.They both don't have physical bodies,use organic technology and their ships are way better than the ships of the younger races.I just can't believe that after billions of years of evolution the Vorlons have telepathic abilities and the Shadows-don't.

 

[vacantlook]

Someone with a better memory of the Techno-mage novel trilogy will have to provide better details than I can, but Galen does discover some means of Shadow-to-Shadow communication that he's able to pop into using his techno-mage tech. I've always figured that that was some form of Shadow telepathy.

And then there's the whole Eye thing that telepathically tries to coerce Ivanova and Delenn to land their ship when they go looking for Sheridan.

As to the Shadows using humanoid telepaths as the CPUs of their ships, they're probably much of the same opinion that the Vorlons have: why fight yourself when you can send others to do it for you.

As for the Vorlons being "pure energy", I can't find it right now, but I'm pretty sure I remember jms having said that Vorlons have some level of physical bodies of a somewhat crystalline construction. There had to be something for the skintab to stick to when Kosh was poisoned in "The Gathering", after all.

And -- nitpicking pet peeve alert -- it's Z'ha'dum, not Za'ha'dum.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Yes I've been thinking about Kosh in "The Gathering".He probably has some level of physilcal body in order to be poisoned.
Or maybe the atmosphere inside his encounter suit was poisoned.But he must have a body that needs to breathe this atmosphere.The interesting thing about this thread is that everybody can theorize because the First Ones give us much more questions than answers.

 

[vacantlook]

I've never thought that Vorlons truly needed an alternate atmosphere; I've always seen it as yet another layer they use, like their short, cryptic answers and reclusiveness, to keep the annoying people away.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

I also don't think that the Vorlons were dependent on the alternate atmosphere.When Ulkesh was ejected from his encounter suit he spent a lot of time in Oxygen/Nitrogen atmosphere and after that he kept fighting Kosh in vacuum.

 

[Alluveal]

Welcome, JoyUnbounded! Always nice to see a new face around here.

My opinoin is that both the Shadows and the Vorlons have evolved to pure energy.As we know energy can convert to matter and matter back to energy.So I suppose that when they focus they can produce enough energy to make their bodies solid for a while.

Very interesting premise, but not sure. I personally believe the shadows are solid and can become invisible. After all, when Morden was brought before Londo, he had his guards aim to either side of Morden and took out two shadow creatures (though they stayed in "Stealth form" it seems after they died.)

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Perhaps both statements are correct and the Shadows have some kind of physical body which is much different than our understanding of what is solid and what is not.

 

[Marcelo]

Why Walkers of Sigma 957 don't want to know or like the Vorlons?

I know it's not canonical, but the book "Wars of the Ancients" brings the theory that, in ancient times, the Walkers had two planets where they stored their knowledge in vast databases, and one of these planets was obliterated by an asteroid that collided with it, destroying much of the database. The Walkers suspected that the asteroid came from Vorlon space. At the time, the Vorlons disliked the Walkers because of their refusal to give away the Hyperspace technology that they had perfected.
While not everything in the book can be taken too seriously, it's worth reading for those interested in the first one races.

 

[KoshFan]

My take was that the Walkers thought the Vorlons were full of themselves... as, in fact, they were. They probably remember the Vorlon promise to guide the younger races, and have probably watched the Vorlons get further and further away from that pledge; they probably decided to come on board when they heard Ivanova talking about the Vorlons like they were gods (and I don't mean Booji). "Damn," they probably said to themselves. "Not another race that's drinking the Kool-Aid... okay, we'd better show up to make sure the Vorlons don't get away with murder again."

In other words, the Walkers -- who seemed so stand-offish -- may well have had more of our interests at heart than any Vorlon did (except Kosh, of course).