First Ones Mysteries - exchanges of ideas needed

[DarkVorlon]

(FROM OTHER POST) and the great thing about the first ones is everyone can draw their own opinions about their motives without putting them into a box.

Thanks!!! you are starting to understand what I want. To see those opinions posted and to start discussion on the principal matter of the show, us getting away from the guidance of the first ones. But please don't start talking about us, it seems that JMS and others are going to cover that topic pretty well, but it seems that nobody wants to talk about the First Ones anymore. So far only one topic was posted since I start my "campaing" and look, it diverts completly from the First Ones. Why everybody have such apathy to the First Ones? Why it seems that you think that the First Ones are not important in the Babylon 5 universe beyond pulling out their ships when some Trekki or Star Wars fan "attacks" B5?

Things that I want to see in disscusion are:

Lorien evolve to an energy form? His humaniod form was his true original form? Are Vorlons evolved energy beigns? Can it be possible that they have also a non-energy form that resembles their encounter suits as our encounter suits resemble our humanoid form when we evolve to energy beigns?

The first wars between the first ones (and please the war that involve mimbaris and Valen is NOT the first shadow war).

Why Walkers of Sigma 957 don't want to know or like the Vorlons?

Could it be possible that Walkers and Shadows try to shepperd the Vorlons (remember according to Delen Shadows are older than the Vorlons). Vorlons realize what they were doing and that is why Walkers are mad with the Vorlons and Vorlons and Shadows "hate" each other. Also it seems that Vorlon technology is somehow inferior to other First One's technology, (go check their jump gates)

When Vorlons open the Thridspace gate, Where were the ohter First Ones?

How we can rationalize that vorlons and shadow fighters are so weak against younger races ships, but then a group of 6 vorlon fighters (go count them) was able to cripple or disable a Shadow battlecruiser?

Vorlons kill the dilgar saying that we are not ready for inmortality. How the Vorlons reach inmortality with a serum or by birth?. Remember Lorien?, his race was the first of the first ones and they start to birth mortal and die?

Could that be the reason for Lorien to shepperd the other races because their people start to reincarnate in the Walkers, Vorlons or Shadows?

What about one of the B5 novels that mention a being call The WORM even Kosh get disturbed by the presence of the Worm.

Why vorlons choose to appears like angels? Are the Vorlons the angels that appears in the Bible or the Vorlon just took advantage of faith that were already present on a planet when they first visited it?

So people there are a lot of thing that can be discussed about the First Ones, give it a try please!!!

 

[DaRkEnEdStAr]

Re: What\'s wrong with you pepople!!!

umm .. Yes

 

[Recoil]

Re: What\'s wrong with you pepople!!!

Easy killer!

 

[jnk5y]

Re: What\'s wrong with you pepople!!!

I'll pick some of the topics.

I think the vorlons and shadows are not immortal. I think they have tech and are created in a way that they can live for a very long time. Reminds me of the bible in genesis where it lists all the people and their children and their childrens children. It also tells you how long they lived. If you notice, (no pun intended) in the beginning the people lived much longer than the people towards the end.

I think the vorlons decided to use normal gates b/c they wanted to look sorta young (like parents who use slang to appear cool). They didn't want the others to know how old they really were. I think shadows and vorlons and all the first ones are all evenly matched. I think once you get to a certain point in development you can't get any higher.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: What\'s wrong with you pepople!!!

Your enthusiasm overwhelms us, Dark Vorlon. In case you hadn't noticed, I do care about the First Ones. But there are other aspects of the Babylon 5 universe, more easily understood and easily discussed. As I believe someone else posted in another thread, the First Ones are mysteries. To pry too much into them destroys some of their appeal. Besides, there's not a lot to discuss, for precisely that reason! JMS deliberately left them vague.

I am NOT saying, however, that they aren't worth discussing. Just that they shouldn't be obsessed about. So I'll still give some of your questions a shot.

Why Walkers of Sigma 957 don't want to know or like the Vorlons?

I'm pretty sure that the Walkers knew about the original agreement: the Shadows and the Vorlons would guide the younger races. The Walkers then saw how both sides stopped caring about the younger races and focused only on the competition. Hence, dislike for the Vorlons; they'd strayed from their assigned path. Note that when the Walkers promise to join, they simply say that "they will be there," not that they will fight. They may have hoped that their simple presence could end the conflict -- a sort of reminder. Of course, even when they, five other races, and Lorien himself appear, the Vorlons and the Shadows don't seem to care.

When Vorlons open the Thridspace gate, Where were the ohter First Ones?

I think this question is related to the earlier one. The Vorlons, by Lyta's admission, had grown very proud, and severely overconfident. As the Vorlons were not doing what they were supposed to be doing anyway, the other First Ones probably decided to let them deal with the problem themselves as their reward for their foolishness.

If the situation had gotten extremely out of hand, I expect the other races would have banded together to kick the Thirdspace folks out, but only after the Vorlons had been wiped out or crippled by the fight. If the Vorlons had gone down, I bet that even the Shadows would have stepped in.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: What\'s wrong with you pepople!!!

I think the vorlons decided to use normal gates b/c they wanted to look sorta young (like parents who use slang to appear cool). They didn't want the others to know how old they really were. I think shadows and vorlons and all the first ones are all evenly matched. I think once you get to a certain point in development you can't get any higher.

The other reason that the Vorlons used the normal jump gates is that the jump gates were a Vorlon invention. So the Vorlons were using either gates that they had built or copies of their gates.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: What\'s wrong with you pepople!!!

And it's a nice orderly system, the kind of thing they like. The Shadows come and go in a much more chaotic way, any way they please, which doesn't suit the Vorlon style at all.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: What\'s wrong with you pepople!!!

This is only my opinion but:

I have no time what so ever for discussing the worm. I can't remember what book it was but if It's the one I think then the whole thing was garbage (IMO)

There were umpteen silly ideas like a race who have three eyes and can blind themselves by crying acid tears. And in the end the worm passed through the station and nothing happened.

So my personal opinion is that this story can be ignored, preferablely forgotten, hopefully destroyed; but maybe you feel differently.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: What\'s wrong with you pepople!!!

Are the Vorlons the angels that appears in the Bible or the Vorlon just took advantage of faith that were already present on a planet when they first visited it?

If they're so technologically advanced, why would they be fighting on our planet? In B5, someone somewhere mentioned how medieval-era paintings of demons fighting angels are actually Vorlons and Shadows, so they either were the angels and demons, fighting on Earth in anticipation of our eventual space age, when we would meet them and believe them to be angels; or, they just took advantage of our faith when they first met us. It's really impossible to say, but I think the latter is most likely.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

I have a question about the Vorlons.One of my favourite moments of the whole series is the scene in "Interludes And Examinations" when Sheridan opposed Kosh and suggested that the Vorlons should get off ther encounter-suited butts and do something.One of Kosh's statements was-"...there are still few of us.We are not prepared yet."What did he mean?We know that the Vorlons can split their consciousness into pieces but can they split themselves into smaller parts and create an army for example.I was wondering if anyone has an explanation to that.

 

[KoshFan]

When a Vorlon splits off, the "copy" isn't terribly powerful. It's just along for the ride -- observing, probably, and at the very most influencing events quite subtly. When we see Kosh fight the second Vorlon ambassador (Ulkesh), Kosh has to have help from Sheridan and Lorien to match strength with one who was previously his equal. The copies just aren't that strong. So if you want an army of wimps, that's fine; if you want an army actually capable of fighting Shadows... no good.

 

[Alluveal]

I'll give my responses, though I imagine they're probably pretty cookie-cutter/similar to everyone else's, but here goes!

Lorien evolve to an energy form? His humaniod form was his true original form? Are Vorlons evolved energy beigns? Can it be possible that they have also a non-energy form that resembles their encounter suits as our encounter suits resemble our humanoid form when we evolve to energy beigns?

Well, I think Lorien's race was able to go between the two: physical and energy. He obviously took physical form form for Sheridan on and after he left Z'Ha'Dum. But, he was also capable of the energy deal as he saved Sheridan's life. I'm going to guess that his humanoid form was his true original form and that his race learned how to maintain it and go back and forth. Whereas the Vorlons seem to be only energy in form and must have their encounter suits on in order to appear "solid." Kosh, for example, was able to keep a piece of himself inside Sheridan and it came out to fight Ulkesh. So, I think Lorien's race and the Vorlon race just evolved differently. That's my take on that.

The first wars between the first ones (and please the war that involve mimbaris and Valen is NOT the first shadow war).

Why Walkers of Sigma 957 don't want to know or like the Vorlons?

Could it be possible that Walkers and Shadows try to shepperd the Vorlons (remember according to Delen Shadows are older than the Vorlons). Vorlons realize what they were doing and that is why Walkers are mad with the Vorlons and Vorlons and Shadows "hate" each other. Also it seems that Vorlon technology is somehow inferior to other First One's technology, (go check their jump gates)

Not sure about the Walkers of Sigma 957 and the Vorlons. I get the feeling that the Vorlons were rather arrogant, that they resembled the human race in that regard--they reached out too far, too fast (i.e. Thirdspace issues here when they tried to become gods.) I think that's why Kosh had a "thing" for the humans, perhaps they reminded him of his own race so long ago. And, we see that the human race (after much strife and evolving) does eventually become very much like the Vorlons (encounter suit and all.) Though the humans seemed to have retained their solid form in the future, like Lorien's race.

I would wager that the walkers and the vorlons are just two of those "first ones" that never quite got along. =) I'd love to hear other ideas, though, on that one. And I'm not sure that Vorlon technology is neccessarily less "uber" than the First Ones, but you get enough First Ones together and it can certainly take out a Vorlon mother-ship. =)

How we can rationalize that vorlons and shadow fighters are so weak against younger races ships, but then a group of 6 vorlon fighters (go count them) was able to cripple or disable a Shadow battlecruiser?

I'm trying to remember where Vorlon fighters were supposedly weaker. Examples? My memory isn't what it used to be.

Vorlons kill the dilgar saying that we are not ready for inmortality. How the Vorlons reach inmortality with a serum or by birth?. Remember Lorien?, his race was the first of the first ones and they start to birth mortal and die?

Could that be the reason for Lorien to shepperd the other races because their people start to reincarnate in the Walkers, Vorlons or Shadows?

I'm not sure I'd jump to the conclusion that one race is able to reincarnate into another race. We saw it in the Minbari/Humans, but Valen was that link. Personally? I love the idea of reincarnation being cross-species in the B5 universe. I think it would certainly give a soul the necessarily "school ground" to experience many levels of function, technology and morality before they ascend, woudn't it?

Not sure what "The Worm" is, I haven't read that book. Which one is it?

Why vorlons choose to appears like angels? Are the Vorlons the angels that appears in the Bible or the Vorlon just took advantage of faith that were already present on a planet when they first visited it?

I think they just appeared as angels to manipulate the other races. =)

 

[vacantlook]

I'm not sure I'd jump to the conclusion that one race is able to reincarnate into another race. We saw it in the Minbari/Humans, but Valen was that link....

In the whole "bar fight" jms has created with that part of the story, I fall on the other side. I see it as Lennier (and other minbari) believing that humans are getting reincarnated minbari souls, but that that's not what's actually happened. Sinclair's becoming minbari to become Valen, and his subsequent marriage and having children, caused whatever human junk DNA that was still in him to be passed on into progressively more and more of the minbari population over the thousand years between then and the present day. The triluminary, having been used to genetically convert Sinclair from human to minbari, is still tuned to human DNA when it's used to scan humans at the Battle of the Line, which is why it reacts to them. The minbari then either misinterpret this and come to believe minbari souls are being reborn in humans, or, as the one minbari Delenn confronts in the end of "Atonement" seems to indicate, a few minbari know minbari have human DNA but fear letting that information come out and so used the "reincarnated souls" explanation as a ruse. So, I'd say there's no reincarnation of anything, just minbari believing so out of lacking all the information.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Thanks for the explanation KoshFan.Maybe splitting is not the way that the Vorlons reproduce themselves.I just can't explain to myself the phrase"...there are still few of us".Did Kosh expect some kind of reinforcements or the others that Kosh waited for were the united younger races themselves?

 

[vacantlook]

Thanks for the explanation KoshFan.Maybe splitting is not the way that the Vorlons reproduce themselves.I just can't explain to myself the phrase"...there are still few of us".Did Kosh expect some kind of reinforcements or the others that Kosh waited for were the united younger races themselves?

"Perhaps, but there are still few of us. It is not our time. It is yours. We are not prepared yet."

The "our" in "it is not our time" seems to me to be reflecting back on the "us" in the previous sentence, so then I can't see how that "us" could be referencing the united forces of the younger races. Kosh is Captain Cryptic, though, so I guess he could be using those pronouns to reference different things, but with the whole argument between Kosh and Sheridan being over the Vorlons getting actively involved in the war, I would think Kosh is most likely referring to the Vorlons with both that "us" and "our". That then would bring it back to what does he mean by "there are still few of us" if "us" refers to the Vorlons. Maybe by "us" he doesn't just mean the Vorlons as people but also Vorlon military capabilities including ships and the like. Vorlon ships are kind of alive, so maybe he's including them in the collective "us".

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Yes I think this could be the answer.Perhaps the Vorlons consider their ships a part of their race and at that moment they were building more ships(and maybe more planet killers) and that would make their population grow.

 

[vacantlook]

Ooo, I just had a thought.

Maybe by "us" in his "there are still few of us", he's talking about members of the Vorlon race that would be willing to support and execute an actual open assault on the Shadows. Maybe they have the numbers physically, but not enough Vorlons with the will power to engage directly in a war.

Also, given Kosh's later reaction to Sheridan about it all during the dream sequence, maybe by "we are not prepared yet" Kosh is speaking emotionally, ie the Vorlons are not prepared to deal with the psychological side of having to fight a war. After all, Lyta eventually says after Kosh is killed that it's been a really long time since a Vorlon has died and that it has had a profound impact on all of the Vorlons.

 

[Alluveal]

Maybe by "us" in his "there are still few of us", he's talking about members of the Vorlon race that would be willing to support and execute an actual open assault on the Shadows. Maybe they have the numbers physically, but not enough Vorlons with the will power to engage directly in a war.

This was my thought as well--that Kosh was one of a few who wanted to help the humans and become more directly involved, or that believed that the humans needed a little help.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

As you said Vacantlook he is Captian Cryptic so he could mean a thousand different things just by saying a single word.Can you imagine if he was speaking with whole paragraphs.

 

[KoshFan]

Thanks for the explanation KoshFan.Maybe splitting is not the way that the Vorlons reproduce themselves.

That's definitely not the case; JMS has said there haven't been any baby Vorlons in a long, long time.

I just can't explain to myself the phrase"...there are still few of us".Did Kosh expect some kind of reinforcements or the others that Kosh waited for were the united younger races themselves?

I like the idea of persuading other Vorlons -- but I think it's more likely that Kosh was simply referring back to an earlier conversation. He'd told Sheridan that there weren't a lot of Vorlons, and he's reminding Sheridan of that conversation.