Flat characters

[drakh]

The review said that jms "used to rail against SF clichés"... But from my perspective, that's not accurate.

Remember G'Kar, the moustache twirling villain?

Londo, the wacky alien comic relief with the laughable hair?

I'd say jms embraces cliches.
Slowly adds a little texture.
And then turns them on their head.

I think our band of Rangers are destined to become far, far more then they start out in the movie. And the hints jms dropped in his first Prevuemag interview already has me speculating...

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

 

[channe]

Drakh,

I'm counting on this to happen.

If there's one thing JMS does right, it's finding the chair we're comfortable in and replacing it with an iron maiden.

The stock characters, the cliches, are almost comfortable. It's *comfortable* to have alien comic relief.

You get your viewers and, BAM - kick their comfortable little butts.

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Channe, the pseudo-Ranger, who lives for the One and dies for the chocolate cheesecake
--
OnlineDude: I suppose now would not be the time to bring up the old one about the starlet who was so new to Hollywood she slept with the writer...
JMS: But that was only because she heard that in Hollywood, *everyone* screws the writer.
--
"Foreshadowing! Your key to quality literature!" -Berkeley Breathed

 

[GKarsEye]

Yes, thank you, this is what I have been saying all along! JMS' track record show us this. Why does no one ever listen to the mighty GKarsEye?

Maybe I'm more in tune to the "embracing cliches" thing (excellent way of putting it, drakh) because of my intense interest and knowledge of music, where jazz musicians do that sort of thing on purpose.

This may sound silly, but if you want another way to understand JMS and B5, listen to Dexter Gordon play sax.

(Right, Ok, now I know why no one listens to me. It's 'cause I say stupid shit like that.

)

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[channe]

Noooo, I understand you completely, GkarsEye!

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Channe, the pseudo-Ranger, who lives for the One and dies for the chocolate cheesecake
--
OnlineDude: I suppose now would not be the time to bring up the old one about the starlet who was so new to Hollywood she slept with the writer...
JMS: But that was only because she heard that in Hollywood, *everyone* screws the writer.
--
"Foreshadowing! Your key to quality literature!" -Berkeley Breathed

 

[Delbert]

If done well, using stereotyped characters is a useful tool in a pilot for an ensemble series. If you just have a handful of main characters (hero + sidekick + love interest + villain + henchman), then you have time to develop them in a 90 minute movie. Eight or nine main characters? No way. If you then go to series, that's when you have time to develop them, but in the pilot, artful use of stereotypes and good performances helps make the characters feel more rounded out, more familiar than they are.

Now what we have to wait for is to see whether JMS manages to pull this off. Has he ever written a standalone movie before? I really can't remember. But that's what B5LR: TLADIS is at the moment. If it succeeds as that, then people will want to see more and we will get the series. If it fails, then the B5 fans have a further insight into the B5 universe, but only 90 minutes of it, and the cast and crew will move on to other things.

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[drakh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Delbert:
Has he ever written a standalone movie before? I really can't remember.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>An adaption of Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde, which I haven't seen, and a Murder, She Wrote TV movie, which was very nice IMO, and managed to hold it's own ratings wise again two juggernaut sitcom season finales (Friends and some other).

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

 

[channe]

I'm putting this in a spoiler box because it might be considered to be so. If so they're slight. Here's what I see characterwise:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Hero - David Martel (well, duh)
Sidekick - the Liandra crew (it's already been established on this site that they're "loyal" to David and thus on the rustbucket Liandra)
Love Interest - remains to be seen (though someone's gonna end up 'shipper chow, I'm sure, even if it is, as someone joked, David/Dulann)
Villain - Space Amoebas (another well, duh)
I can't see any henchmen, but I can see a secondary antagonist in the form of the Grey Council.
Alien Comic Relief: Tirk the Drazi
</font></td></tr></table>

And may I remind everyone that B5 had a "warrior-babe" as well. Her name was Susan Ivanova.

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Channe, the next JMS, who lives for the One and dies for the chocolate cheesecake
--
OnlineDude: I suppose now would not be the time to bring up the old one about the starlet who was so new to Hollywood she slept with the writer...
JMS: But that was only because she heard that in Hollywood, *everyone* screws the writer.

 

[Quagmire]

From the Gathering G'Kar appeared to be a standard black hat character. How can anyone actually be taking this seriously.

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"Yeah, we could start our own game where people throw ducks at balloons and nothing's the way it seems."-Homer

 

[sarah cantrell]

And what a terrific "warrior-babe" she was Channe. ENORMOUSLY talented!

Cheers, Myriam.

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[crazybillyo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> And what a terrific "warrior-babe" she was Channe. ENORMOUSLY talented! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? I thought her performance was kind of dull and cliche...

MYRIAM! PUT DOWN THAT PIKE! I WAS ONLY KIDDING! MYRIAM, PLEASE!

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Sheridan: Are you trying to cheer me up?
Ivanova: No sir, wouldn't dream of it.
Sheridan: Good, I hate being cheered up. It's depressing.
Ivanova: So in that case we're all going to die horrible, painful, lingering deaths.
Sheridan: Thank you, I feel so much better now.

 

[sarah cantrell]

Hey there, don't you worry no pikes necessary. Thanks for making me giggle. Myriam

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[hypatia]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sarah cantrell:
Hey there, don't you worry no pikes necessary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These guys with their pikes already. Geeze.

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

 

[BlackStar]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hypatia:
These guys with their pikes already. Geeze.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I much prefer the traditional club.



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"There's Snow White and the Seven Narns, Who's Your Little Pak'ma'ra, others..."
- Captain Matthew Gideon, The Needs of Earth
Rising Star

 

[hypatia]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackStar:
I much prefer the traditional club.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFLOL

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

 

[Kribu]

**Jumps in and whacks BlackStar over the head with the traditional club**

Greeens rule!!

Ahem... sorry, wrong thread.

Ah yes, the characters - but of course they can seem flat and one-dimensional in the pilot!! How else could we see them growing and changing throughout the series??

Of course, I guess the other way would be to start off with *extremely* intriguing, multi-dimensional, fascinating characters (not that I'm saying that the characters in the movie aren't intriguing already!) and slowly turn them into flat, clichéd, one-dimensional types...

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"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
Visit Kribu's Lounge - now completely ad-free!

 

[drakh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
Of course, I guess the other way would be to start off with *extremely* intriguing, multi-dimensional, fascinating characters (not that I'm saying that the characters in the movie aren't intriguing already!) and slowly turn them into flat, clichéd, one-dimensional types...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>See Earth: Final Conflict.



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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

 

[Kribu]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by drakh:
See Earth: Final Conflict.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do I have the feeling that the right answer would be "No, thank you"?

Haven't seen it, don't have any way to see it, therefore cannot comment.

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"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
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[Delbert]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by drakh:
An adaption of Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde, which I haven't seen, and a Murder, She Wrote TV movie, which was very nice IMO, and managed to hold it's own ratings wise again two juggernaut sitcom season finales (Friends and some other).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for that, drakh! Haven't seen those, so can't say for myself either.

Channe - my point about the list of characters (hero - sidekick - love interest - main villain - henchman) was that it gives only five characters to develop, and even there the henchman and sidekick usually are not developed, particularly in an action movie, beyond a couple of schticks. Your listing of how each role is filled in B5LR is valid, but simply supports what I was saying about the time available to round out the characters, as you have the "sidekick" as the entire crew of the Liandra. That's Tirk, Na'Feel, Dulann, Firell, Sasaki, Marshall, Cantrell (I think I've remembered character names rather than actors!). That's seven characters sharing the character development time of one! So I'm not going to be looking for huge character development on these guys in TLADIS, but I will hope that the actors have used their skills to make the characters seem real and interesting with the material that they have. By the simple fact that they come here and talk to us it is clear that the cast were enthusiastic about the project and interested in it as more than a paycheque (I originally typed that as "paycheck" - curse you colonials!

) So I don't doubt that they gave their all to their work and that it will show on screen.

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[drakh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
Why do I have the feeling that the right answer would be "No, thank you"?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You definitively want to see the first season. It's great. However, then the distributor got a sudden attack on acute moronicity, and decided to shuffle around a few arc episodes as a ratings stunt. People complained. So it was decided to fix this by...

(need pause to full prepare myself for describing this act of primal idiocy)

...by firing most of the writing staff, ditching the arc and the lead in favour of a younger magic superman half-alien and mindless standalone action/skiffy stories.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

 

[Kribu]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by drakh:
...by firing most of the writing staff, ditching the arc and the lead in favour of a younger magic superman half-alien and mindless standalone action/skiffy stories.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the explanation, Drakh. How smart of them.

Which is why I would much prefer to have "flat" characters to start with and get intriguing, captivating, growing, changing characters as the story progresses - exactly what B5 did.

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"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
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