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Green! Purple!
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PillowRock
Regular
Well, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th words are all Italian, the 5th derives from another language and I suspect the last does as well. I don't know what "Pasty" means in this context. (Although if we were in NC-17 I could give you a non-food explanation.)
Perogie and Punchke are Polish. Perogie are basically the Polish version of raviolli and punchke are very specific type of custard or fruit fille doughnut (and yes, you can tell the difference between that and a standard filled doughnut immediately once you have been introduced to them).
A pasty (in this case with a short "a" as in fast, not a long "a" as in face or the NC-17 item) could be though of as a sort of northern European version of a calzone. It is the same kind of sturdy dough outer shell filled with meat, veggies, and seasoning .... just that the specifics of what those are are appropriate to their region of origin. I seem to remember reading or hearing that they were the typical lunch at work for Welsh miners; but they are also common in the U.P. of Michigan and northern Wisconsin, which is an area that is relatively heavy in people of Scandinavian decent. It is also an area that historically was a big mining region, so it may have been transferred from some Welsh immigrants that way.
The point was that, while I know the country of origina of many of those, I have no clue why those specific names were given any of them (or many other foods). The same is true for things like "hoagies". For all I know, the store/deli/whatever that first introduced that style of sandwich to some particular city may have been named Hoagie. I am unlikely to find out, though.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
I know what you mean, but when food items have names in a language I don't speak, I don't know if the name is odd or not. Ravioli might mean "little stuffed pasta" in Italian for all I know, which would be a perfectly sensible descriptive name. If "Ravioli" is Italian for "Hero" or "Grinder" I'd never know it, so I wouldn't wonder about the name. It is names that I can't figure out that appear to be in English that I spent time thinking about.
Regards,
Joe
Jade Jaguar
Regular
PR, sinced we live in the same area, I have to ask where you see them called "heros?" I find submarine, or, really, subs, to be the most common name around here, although, one of my favorite places, Mancinos, calls them grinders. They were also called submarine sandwiches in Oklahoma, when I was a kid, and in the late 60's, I worked in a pizza place owned by an Italian, in Mt. Pleasant Mi, home of Central Michigan U., and they were called submarines there, too. Back in the 50's and 60's, it was common to put a toothpick with an olive on it on top of the "sub," forming a periscope. I would bet that the term submarine sandwich was popularized after WW2, when pizza began its spread to its current ubiquity, since most of those places were run by Italians, and also sold sandwiches. I would point out that many common sub ingredients are "ground," such as various kinds of salami, mortadella loaf, etc., but I always thought "grinder' meant that they caused your stomach to grind with indegestion.
You are right about pasties being Welsh, or Cornish, in origin, and were brought to Michigan's upper peninsula by miners. I consider good pasties a real treat. We used to make them in summer camp, wrap them in aluminum foil, and bake them in the camp fire. They consist mainly of a pie crust like dough, wrapped around a filling of beef and rutabagas, but potatoes, carrots, and or onions may also be present. They are often served topped with gravy.
Your spelling "punchke" is phonetic. The correct spelling is patzki, or, at least close to that. They are commonly served just before lent, and have a lot of fat in them. They are Polish, and Detroit makes quite a big deal about them, as I'm sure you know.
I would also like to make it clear that I will not eat a purple or green sandwich by any name!
You are right about pasties being Welsh, or Cornish, in origin, and were brought to Michigan's upper peninsula by miners. I consider good pasties a real treat. We used to make them in summer camp, wrap them in aluminum foil, and bake them in the camp fire. They consist mainly of a pie crust like dough, wrapped around a filling of beef and rutabagas, but potatoes, carrots, and or onions may also be present. They are often served topped with gravy.
Your spelling "punchke" is phonetic. The correct spelling is patzki, or, at least close to that.
They are commonly served just before lent, and have a lot of fat in them. They are Polish, and Detroit makes quite a big deal about them, as I'm sure you know.I would also like to make it clear that I will not eat a purple or green sandwich by any name!
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
"I do not like them Sam-I-Am! I do not like green eggs and ham!"
Regards,
Joe
A_M_Swallow
Regular
A Cornish Pastie
PillowRock
Regular
I don't. At least not around here. It's something that I run into occassionally when traveling. I can't remember where exactly, but it seems like I did see "hero" at a particular sub shop. That shop was explicitly selling itself as "New York" style, or something like that, so they were purposely using a New York terminology.
Yep, Michigan (or, at least the southern LP) is definitely "sub" country for little bit of linguistic regionalism. With a few specific shops that use "grinder".
Yeah, I winging it on that one, and it isn't something that is standard in a lot of spellcheckers.Your spelling "punchke" is phonetic. The correct spelling is patzki, or, at least close to that.
Since I only see it that one week or so each year, it slips my mind. In a few weeks I would have gotten it right (as we approach "Fat Tuesday", which has a different ring to it than "Mardi Gras" ).Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
(as we approach "Fat Tuesday", which has a different ring to it than "Mardi Gras"
Well, everything sounds better in French. Where would you rather live, "Baton Rouge" or "Red Stick"?
Regards,
Joe
PillowRock
Regular
Yes, but if that were the case then I would expect one of those syllables (at least) to show up in the names of other pasta dishes, and they don't. A fair number of them end with an "i", but not with the same entire syllable. Even the trailing "i" isn't always there, as in lasagna. Actually, I had thought that "pasta" was a word that we had just coopted from Italian. It has the right sound to it, and I generally only hear it applied to Italian styles of noodles.
Yeah, I can see that.It is names that I can't figure out that appear to be in English that I spent time thinking about.
Of course, I still haven't figured out why a 7-Up or an orange pop counts as a "coke" in some parts of the South.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
"Pasta" (it means "paste" in Italian) is one of many words that we have simply adopted unaltered into English from another language. This has been happening for a very long time and accounts for much of the richness and flexibility of the language.
Something like the mechanism that makes any photocopy a "xerox" to some people or any facial tissue a "kleenex". A brand name or trademark gets used as a generic term. Both Aspirin and Heroin started out as trademarked names for specific (and at the time legal) phramaceutical product. Coca-Cola (invented in Atlanta in the 1880s or 90s) probably got a big head-start on other carbonated, sweetened soda-pops in much of the Sout, and the late-comers (I think 7-Up arrived in the 40s or 50s) were generically referred by the first product's nickname. And sometimes people are just strange. There is a habit at several elite law schools for students to refer to any kind of sandwich as a "burger". Nobody seems to know why. My suggestion that this indicates that law students are lazy and/or stupid was not met with joy by the lawyer who verified this odd story for me after I'd read it in a book.
Regards,
Joe
Something like the mechanism that makes any photocopy a "xerox" to some people or any facial tissue a "kleenex". A brand name or trademark gets used as a generic term. Both Aspirin and Heroin started out as trademarked names for specific (and at the time legal
) phramaceutical product. Coca-Cola (invented in Atlanta in the 1880s or 90s) probably got a big head-start on other carbonated, sweetened soda-pops in much of the Sout, and the late-comers (I think 7-Up arrived in the 40s or 50s) were generically referred by the first product's nickname. And sometimes people are just strange. There is a habit at several elite law schools for students to refer to any kind of sandwich as a "burger". Nobody seems to know why. My suggestion that this indicates that law students are lazy and/or stupid was not met with joy by the lawyer who verified this odd story for me after I'd read it in a book. Regards,
Joe
Elenopa
Regular
A Cornish Pastie
Sorry, that is a Devonshire pasty.
THIS is a Cornish pasty,
If you notice, the crust goes over the top, not around the side. The story goes that they were traditionally baked for the miners with meat & vegetables at one end, and jam at the other. The pasty would be held by the crust whilst being eaten (starting at the meat end and ending with the jam) then the crust would be thrown away as it had the dirt from the miners hands on it.
There is also a legend that the pastry had to be tough enough to survive being dropped down the mineshaft.
Sorry to be picky, but I'm two generations removed from Cornwall and my Mother wouldn't forgive me if I let this pass.
PillowRock
Regular
Yeah, at some level I understand why that might happen. I guess it just bugs me more with "coke" because it creates a lack of clarity. With a "xerox" or a "kleenex" it is pretty clear that substituting a competitor is not a problem. With different kinds of pop (soda, or soda pop) the other options are not so interchangable.
"If I had wanted a 7-Up, I would have ordered a 7-Up. I ordered a Coke because I want a Coke. Why are you asking me if I want a 7-Up or an Orange Crush?"
The same thing would apply to your "burger" example.
Or, that they tend to be both due to sleep deprivation.My suggestion that this indicates that law students are lazy and/or stupid was not met with joy by the lawyer who verified this odd story for me after I'd read it in a book.
LondosHair
Regular
NO! There will be no compromise! Only purple or green!!
Jade Jaguar
Regular
The Cornish Pasty looks most like the ones I've seen in Michigan's UP, and places in the Lower Peninsula that have good, authentic, ones. In the south of the US, they make a desert that looks a lot like that. It is called a fried pie, and has a filling made of dried fruit and sugar, boiled in water, until the fruit softens, and it all thickens.
