Has There Been Any News Re. The New B5 ~2016+~ Theatrical Movie?

[Springer]

My understanding is that it is related to WB having many different competing branches. B5 was part of the PTEN branch and the show was produced independently of the WB studio (by Joe & Doug's studio); there is probably no branch in WB left to support it.

PTEN dissolved before season 5 was even filmed. There was quite a bit of merchandising after that occurred, as well as spinoffs. I'd have to see something concrete to believe your premise. Things dried up after JMS stopped playing ball with them. They know that as long as he's alive, fans won't accept anything he doesn't approve of and it's already a niche product as it is.

JMS has regularly spoken about the infighting between departments at WB. Here's a statement he made at a convention in 2013: http://freebabylon5.com/frequently-asked-questions/ (Click on the 'why isn't B5 available in reruns' question)

To quote from what JMS says... "[PTEN] that was outside of Warner Bros. Television. Warner Bros. Television is like the big TV shows and the sitcoms and the Law & Orders and all that kind of stuff. And these [PTEN] executives said, “We want to make television, too. We’re part of Warner Bros. Domestic Distribution, we want to have shows”. And these guys [Warner Bros. Television] hated those guys [PTEN]. “It’ our job to create television, not your job. You’re just syndicated, you just set things up. What the hell do you think you’re doing?” And that enmity was there from Day 1 and persisted for the entire run of the show which is why all of the PTEN shows were kind of bastard children to Warner Bros. Television, particularly us because we did well which really pissed off the guys [at Warner Bros. Television]."

Would JMS even work with Big Finish? Would Big Finish want the property without JMS approval? They do good work but where would JMS make the time to provide outlines and approve scripts? And maybe WB doesn't want to work with JMS anymore.

I agree, if JMS and the original surviving cast wasn't involved I wouldn't be interested in audio dramas. Any fiction going forward has to be canon, otherwise I can't see the point from a creative point of view.

 

[JonFrain]

My understanding is that it is related to WB having many different competing branches. B5 was part of the PTEN branch and the show was produced independently of the WB studio (by Joe & Doug's studio); there is probably no branch in WB left to support it.

PTEN dissolved before season 5 was even filmed. There was quite a bit of merchandising after that occurred, as well as spinoffs. I'd have to see something concrete to believe your premise. Things dried up after JMS stopped playing ball with them. They know that as long as he's alive, fans won't accept anything he doesn't approve of and it's already a niche product as it is.

JMS has regularly spoken about the infighting between departments at WB. Here's a statement he made at a convention in 2013: http://freebabylon5.com/frequently-asked-questions/ (Click on the 'why isn't B5 available in reruns' question)

To quote from what JMS says... "[PTEN] that was outside of Warner Bros. Television. Warner Bros. Television is like the big TV shows and the sitcoms and the Law & Orders and all that kind of stuff. And these [PTEN] executives said, “We want to make television, too. We’re part of Warner Bros. Domestic Distribution, we want to have shows”. And these guys [Warner Bros. Television] hated those guys [PTEN]. “It’ our job to create television, not your job. You’re just syndicated, you just set things up. What the hell do you think you’re doing?” And that enmity was there from Day 1 and persisted for the entire run of the show which is why all of the PTEN shows were kind of bastard children to Warner Bros. Television, particularly us because we did well which really pissed off the guys [at Warner Bros. Television]."

That doesn't explain why they had no issue making Crusade, LOTR or the Lost Tales as well as licensing an RPG, miniatures, ...

There's nothing that explains why those things occurred but something like Big Finish can't. I think the most logical answer is that it's not worth the trouble to WB as if they don't include JMS it won't succeed. And if they include him, things run less smoothly from their side of things. They just want to make money and not spend any more time/money than the bare minimum.

 

[Springer]

That doesn't explain why they had no issue making Crusade, LOTR or the Lost Tales as well as licensing an RPG, miniatures, ...

There's nothing that explains why those things occurred but something like Big Finish can't. I think the most logical answer is that it's not worth the trouble to WB as if they don't include JMS it won't succeed. And if they include him, things run less smoothly from their side of things. They just want to make money and not spend any more time/money than the bare minimum.

I was just responding to your request for evidence that B5 was stuck in the middle of conflicts between PTEN and Warners and that this has affected why the show seems to have disappeared from the ether as far as Warners are concerned.

Crusade had TNT financing it, and LOTR was Sci-Fi channel, so there Warners was not directly involved. I guess at the time they were made it was somehow in Warners interest monetarily to allow them to make those shows. Lost Tales seemed to be a rare instance of WB supporting the show.

I know that while the show was in production JMS had final say on merchandise, I don't know if that's the case now but I agree that any creative fiction merchandise - RPGs, novels, comics, computer games, audio dramas – would be unlikely to succeed without JMS' involvement and that probably comes at a price, but to the degree that it becomes too expensive? I'm sure JMS wouldn't stand in the way of a good B5 comic book series for the sake of increasing his bank balance. And it doesn't explain the lack of merchandise like models of the station, action figures, etc that wouldn't require JMS direct involvement. So that's why for me I can't figure out whether licensees just aren't interested in the show, or whether Warners are making the licence too expensive or flat out aren't interested, and that statement from JMS that I linked to suggests its Warners.

 

[JonFrain]

That doesn't explain why they had no issue making Crusade, LOTR or the Lost Tales as well as licensing an RPG, miniatures, ...

There's nothing that explains why those things occurred but something like Big Finish can't. I think the most logical answer is that it's not worth the trouble to WB as if they don't include JMS it won't succeed. And if they include him, things run less smoothly from their side of things. They just want to make money and not spend any more time/money than the bare minimum.

I was just responding to your request for evidence that B5 was stuck in the middle of conflicts between PTEN and Warners and that this has affected why the show seems to have disappeared from the ether as far as Warners are concerned.

Crusade had TNT financing it, and LOTR was Sci-Fi channel, so there Warners was not directly involved. I guess at the time they were made it was somehow in Warners interest monetarily to allow them to make those shows. Lost Tales seemed to be a rare instance of WB supporting the show.

I know that while the show was in production JMS had final say on merchandise, I don't know if that's the case now but I agree that any creative fiction merchandise - RPGs, novels, comics, computer games, audio dramas – would be unlikely to succeed without JMS' involvement and that probably comes at a price, but to the degree that it becomes too expensive? I'm sure JMS wouldn't stand in the way of a good B5 comic book series for the sake of increasing his bank balance. And it doesn't explain the lack of merchandise like models of the station, action figures, etc that wouldn't require JMS direct involvement. So that's why for me I can't figure out whether licensees just aren't interested in the show, or whether Warners are making the licence too expensive or flat out aren't interested, and that statement from JMS that I linked to suggests its Warners.

I never asked for evidence about PTEN issues, I was shocked at the time that they were able to get past them and make a deal with TNT for Season 5. I was on eh newsgroups before they voted for a moderated one and followed things quite closely.

I was asking for evidence that internal WB issues would actually prevent WB from working with Big Finish, as WB was able to make plenty of other deals after PTEN dissolved. I think it's more likely that WB has B5 on the shelf at the moment, especially with Joe continuing to try to get a movie done which doesn't involve them at all.

 

[JoeD80]

I don't think you actually know what evidence you are asking for. You've made a conclusion first and won't accept any answers that don't fit your preconception.

 

[Springer]

I never asked for evidence about PTEN issues, I was shocked at the time that they were able to get past them and make a deal with TNT for Season 5. I was on eh newsgroups before they voted for a moderated one and followed things quite closely.

I was asking for evidence that internal WB issues would actually prevent WB from working with Big Finish, as WB was able to make plenty of other deals after PTEN dissolved. I think it's more likely that WB has B5 on the shelf at the moment, especially with Joe continuing to try to get a movie done which doesn't involve them at all.

Ah, sorry for misunderstanding what you were asking for. I have seen JMS make a few statements about Warners encouraging its different departments to compete with each other rather than work together (might have been when that chap from the DVD/Blu-Ray department came out speaking about remastering the series for Blu-Ray?) but either way, it doesn't make sense to me. If they have a property that could make them a bit of money out of merchandising, then why not? If they really view JMS as competing against them now with his movie, does that mean the movie will work against JMS and the fans, rather than opening the door to getting more stuff out there? I hope not – I'm banking on the movie being a runaway success and facilitating the release of Blu-Rays of the series!

 

[JonFrain]

I never asked for evidence about PTEN issues, I was shocked at the time that they were able to get past them and make a deal with TNT for Season 5. I was on eh newsgroups before they voted for a moderated one and followed things quite closely.

I was asking for evidence that internal WB issues would actually prevent WB from working with Big Finish, as WB was able to make plenty of other deals after PTEN dissolved. I think it's more likely that WB has B5 on the shelf at the moment, especially with Joe continuing to try to get a movie done which doesn't involve them at all.

Ah, sorry for misunderstanding what you were asking for. I have seen JMS make a few statements about Warners encouraging its different departments to compete with each other rather than work together (might have been when that chap from the DVD/Blu-Ray department came out speaking about remastering the series for Blu-Ray?) but either way, it doesn't make sense to me. If they have a property that could make them a bit of money out of merchandising, then why not? If they really view JMS as competing against them now with his movie, does that mean the movie will work against JMS and the fans, rather than opening the door to getting more stuff out there? I hope not – I'm banking on the movie being a runaway success and facilitating the release of Blu-Rays of the series!

The biggest infighting I remember was regarding the WB network not having any interest in saving B5. There was much talk about how the division running the network had no real ties to that which owned the B5 property. On paper it seemed like a perfect match.


There could be a dozen or more reasons why WB would turn down licensing. And I don't totally discount issues within WB. Maybe they are simply of the feeling that the property needs to hibernate and eventually get a reboot ala BSG.

I'm not holding my breath on a B5 movie, especially after statements that he has to build the reputation of his studio before trying to get it funded. Farscape was supposed to get a continuation and a script writer was hired, but then that went nowhere as Brian Henson was unable to find funding.

It's unfortunate that both amazing shows have such niche audiences these days.

 

[Jan]

I'm not holding my breath on a B5 movie, especially after statements that he has to build the reputation of his studio before trying to get it funded.

Not arguing but just to remind you that it's exactly what he said he needed to do two years ago - before his eye surgeries.

 

[JonFrain]

I'm not holding my breath on a B5 movie, especially after statements that he has to build the reputation of his studio before trying to get it funded.

Not arguing but just to remind you that it's exactly what he said he needed to do two years ago - before his eye surgeries.

I know you keep up with his statements of recent years where I only catch snippets here and there. All I remembered was that he would write it in 2016, film in 2017 and use his own studio. I think the budget he quoted was $100 or $120 million? I'd say anything over $50 million would be too much to invest on a B5 film as even Ghostbusters couldn't ride it's name to profits with a $140 million or so budget.

 

[JonFrain]

I don't think you actually know what evidence you are asking for. You've made a conclusion first and won't accept any answers that don't fit your preconception.

Not really, I'm saying your reason has zero evidence and as usual you act like you know everything. Everyone except WB is guessing as to why they stopped being interested in merchandising. Your guess at WB infighting being the reason may be true but don't pretend you know the reason or that there aren't any other possibilities.

I've asked for evidence that the long running WB infighting would suddenly cause issues that didn't exist before JMS:

1) caused the RPG license to disappear (because he wouldn't endorse shoddy writing)
2) told WB he had no interest in any more low budget direct to DVD or TV material
3) announced that he planned to make a film under his control

All three of which are within his rights and make sense, but do you honestly believe these things have no impact on WB's feelings towards the property? WB obviously wants low risk/high reward and don't care about the quality of B5 products.

And Joe, why wasn't WB infighting an issue for other products that did get licensed after PTEN was dissolved?

 

[JoeD80]

Not really, I'm saying your reason has zero evidence and as usual you act like you know everything.

When this is where you set the level of conversation I have no reason to respond.

 

[Jan]

I know you keep up with his statements of recent years where I only catch snippets here and there. All I remembered was that he would write it in 2016, film in 2017 and use his own studio. I think the budget he quoted was $100 or $120 million? I'd say anything over $50 million would be too much to invest on a B5 film as even Ghostbusters couldn't ride it's name to profits with a $140 million or so budget.

At the risk of acting 'like I know everything', the original plan was to write it in 2015 and produce in 2016. And he intended (intends?) to invite WBs participation if they want in.

A hundred million seems perfectly in line with the line he drew in the sand that there'd be no more low-budget B5 projects.

As for Ghostbusters? Looking at IMDb (pro), the budget is estimated at $144MM and in three weeks they've grossed almost $110MM in the USA alone. I don't think there's any doubt it's going to make money.

Jan

 

[JonFrain]

I know you keep up with his statements of recent years where I only catch snippets here and there. All I remembered was that he would write it in 2016, film in 2017 and use his own studio. I think the budget he quoted was $100 or $120 million? I'd say anything over $50 million would be too much to invest on a B5 film as even Ghostbusters couldn't ride it's name to profits with a $140 million or so budget.

At the risk of acting 'like I know everything', the original plan was to write it in 2015 and produce in 2016. And he intended (intends?) to invite WBs participation if they want in.

A hundred million seems perfectly in line with the line he drew in the sand that there'd be no more low-budget B5 projects.

As for Ghostbusters? Looking at IMDb (pro), the budget is estimated at $144MM and in three weeks they've grossed almost $110MM in the USA alone. I don't think there's any doubt it's going to make money.

Jan

LOL. Only Joe comes across that way.

They only make about 50% of the ticket gross and when you add in advertising costs (close to the same amount as the actual budget) they need to gross $400-$500 million to break even on GB.

 

[JonFrain]

Not really, I'm saying your reason has zero evidence and as usual you act like you know everything.

When this is where you set the level of conversation I have no reason to respond.

If that's how you want to avoid the obvious hole in your WB infighting theory, sure.

 

[Jan]

LOL. Only Joe comes across that way.

Actually, I tend to agree with him. I had *no* idea what kind of 'evidence' you were looking for as to reasons why WB doesn't make licenses available. We know, from reputable reports, that they don't any longer. What difference does it make why?

They only make about 50% of the ticket gross and when you add in advertising costs (close to the same amount as the actual budget) they need to gross $400-$500 million to break even on GB.

Uh-huh. And the figure I quoted was for the US only for only three weeks. The books are hardly closed on it yet.

 

[JonFrain]

LOL. Only Joe comes across that way.

Actually, I tend to agree with him. I had *no* idea what kind of 'evidence' you were looking for as to reasons why WB doesn't make licenses available. We know, from reputable reports, that they don't any longer. What difference does it make why?

They only make about 50% of the ticket gross and when you add in advertising costs (close to the same amount as the actual budget) they need to gross $400-$500 million to break even on GB.

Uh-huh. And the figure I quoted was for the US only for only three weeks. The books are hardly closed on it yet.

I just pointed out the holes in Joe's theory and he didn't like it apparently based on his response saying I was stuck in my own theory. The actual reason for WB stopping with licensing is interesting to speculate on.

As far Ghostbusters goes, they keep losing 40-50% on previous weeks sales numbers for that day which doesn't bode well for breaking even since they don't have China to bail them out like the Warcraft movie did. And we're talking about a MAJOR franchise in Ghostbusters which sells itself to a certain extent. Companies don't make movies to break even anyway.

Serenity is a better model to follow and it had a much more limited budget, wasn't nearly as long after the series ended and had Joss Whedon attached. Barring a major casting coup for a B5 film, it's just not a great gamble for investors at the price tag Joe is looking at.

Plus, the strength of the B5 story was its epic, serialized nature. George RR Martin turned down a film deal because of how much would have to be cut. Movies can't do what long running serialized dramas can in terms of epic payoffs. The B5 standalone films really didn't stand up very well, other than ITB which was strongly tied to the series arcs.

 

[Jan]

I just pointed out the holes in Joe's theory and he didn't like it apparently based on his response saying I was stuck in my own theory. The actual reason for WB stopping with licensing is interesting to speculate on.

I have no idea what you're talking about anymore. Whatever holes you perceive, I guess you'll have to declare yourself a winner. Me, I'm still scratching my head over asking for 'evidence' of some sort.

 

[JonFrain]

I just pointed out the holes in Joe's theory and he didn't like it apparently based on his response saying I was stuck in my own theory. The actual reason for WB stopping with licensing is interesting to speculate on.

I have no idea what you're talking about anymore. Whatever holes you perceive, I guess you'll have to declare yourself a winner. Me, I'm still scratching my head over asking for 'evidence' of some sort.

Joe said:

"My understanding is that it is related to WB having many different competing branches. B5 was part of the PTEN branch and the show was produced independently of the WB studio (by Joe & Doug's studio); there is probably no branch in WB left to support it."

Which to me doesn't make sense as PTEN wasn't an issue for all of the merchandising and spinoffs that occurred after they were out of the picture starting with season 5. I simply asked for any evidence of his theory as there was direct evidence against it.

Anyway it's over. Nobody but WB has the actual reasons why they stopped licensing after the RPG went under. I simply made placed a couple of theories that weren't directly contradicted by the past.

 

[Jan]

From what JMS has said a number of times recently, the licenses start at a hundred grand plus a cut of the proceeds. I think that's plenty of 'evidence' right there.

 

[JonFrain]

From what JMS has said a number of times recently, the licenses start at a hundred grand plus a cut of the proceeds. I think that's plenty of 'evidence' right there.

evidence of infighting causing problems?

It was spurred by the statement that Big Finish being told that WB wasn't offering licenses at all.

Can we please just let this go and move on? Let Joe defend himself if he feels the desire.