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Here's a thought...

N

newstarinthesky

Member
Here\'s a thought...

The Hand... a dark race billions of years old, cast out of our dimension into an alternate dimension by the forces of light...

Now, bear with me as I connect some dots...

The Thirdspace aliens... a dark race "even older" than the Vorlons (according to Lyta), trapped in "thirdspace" (an alternate dimension) and were finally cast out by the force of light (the Vorlons).

Are they the same race?

Admittedly, B5LR seems to suggest that the Hand seem to have some rules of combat, and respect loyalty, while the Thirdspace aliens were just anti life.

Could be a lie though, the Thirdspace aliens could have found a more effective way in than the gate method (which blew up in their faces). The Thirdsapce aliens would indeed make the Shadow vessels look "nothing more than insects".

It's a shot in the dark, as I'm sure jms has a lot of twisted ideas on how to, er, twist all perceptions of this enemy.

Indeed what we were told about the Thirdspace aliens may have been a lie... when was the last time you believed everything a Vorlon said...

The Hand may even be a new enemy. Just because we've been told one thing doesn't make it true.

And as I posted elsewhere, they are only "the hand," what of the other parts of the body. Are the Hand only the lesser of the threat compared to the heart or mind of God?

I think we should be very excited about the possibilities this enemy brings, not dissing it as a Shadow knock-off. For me I saw the enemy as something completely distict to the previous baddies, and can't wait to see more.

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Re: Here\'s a thought...

I was wondering if there were other people thinking thirdspace aliens and "the hand" are one and the same race
smile.gif


I consider this a very strong possibility, to be revealed if there's a series.

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"I walk, i shop, i sneeze. I'll be a fireman when the floods roll back. There's trees in the desert since you moved out ... and i don't sleep on a bed of bones."
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

Nope. There are a few things we already know.
Admittedly not Many, but a few.

The ThirdSpace aliens Originated in the "thirdspace" universe.
It is another complete Universe, seperate from ours that the Vorlon opened a door to.
Much to their everlasting regret.

The Hand is a race that was Banished from Our Universe by some group or coalition of the First Ones.
Considering just how unpleasant the Shadows could be, the hand must have been Really Annoying to the First Ones to get Tarred & Feathered and run out of town on a rail.

shocked.gif
shocked.gif
shocked.gif


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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

I`ve been thinking it too. The third space aliens pefectly fit as the hand. Both are genocidal. Both are traped in another universe and cant get out without help. Both manipulate others into doing their bidding. The third space aliens even more so since they could control minds even before the gate was even open, and vorlon minds after it was origianly closed. The third space aliens were more powerfull than the vorlons and shadows. "The Hand of Destruction" would be an accurate description of the third space alines.

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Re: Here\'s a thought...

The Hand are described as immesurably more ancient than the "First Ones", and the city that is uncovered is billions, not merely millions, of years old. This suggests that the entire struggle between the Hand and their opponents could have happened before Lorien and the senient species who followed him and his people even came into existance. It may even be that the races contemporary with the Hand "went beyond the Rim" before Lorien's race acheived sentience. This would explain Lorien's apparent ignorance of the Hand.

If that is the case, they could conceivably be the race that came out of Thirdspace. The Vorlons would have no way of knowing that they are not native to that universe.

It is even possible (as someone suggested on the moderated newsgroup) that the Hand aren't the bad guys they're being portrayed as. We don't know anything of their motives, and what we've heard or surmised about them is from unreliable sources or scanty evidence. What if the ships we saw aren't minions of the Hand, but enemies of them? (Perhaps pretending to be allies.) Maybe they wanted minister Kafta for questioning themselves, and attacked the Valen and destroyed the colony to prevent anyone from using the Gate.
smile.gif


Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

Lorien was a few billion years old too though. It is possible the Hand came after Lorien and that he does know of them, but doesnt consider them a threat. Maybe, as you said, they aren't. No where in the movie (unless I missed something) is it said that the Hand IS the race that was described as being banished all that time ago. It was written in that city that a RACE was banished. Never said it was the Hand. And now that proof is gone, so we won't know until JMS tells us
wink.gif


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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

The Hand: a bad species from another dimension that wants to control and/or destroy the B5 universe.

TNT/WB:...

CR

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[This message has been edited by EntilSedai (edited February 10, 2002).]
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Nope. There are a few things we already know.
Admittedly not Many, but a few.

The ThirdSpace aliens Originated in the "thirdspace" universe.
It is another complete Universe, seperate from ours that the Vorlon opened a door to.
Much to their everlasting regret.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That doesn't mean they didn't cross over into "our" universe, conquered territory, and then were banished back to the their own, by this "light". Could the "light" be a race of the first ones, those that were already beyond the rim during sheridan's war.

But most likely, this "light" was the Vorlons.

We do not get confirmation in 'Rangers' that 'The Hand' did originate in "our" universe. That means it could have originated in the "thirdspace" universe.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
The Hand is a race that was Banished from Our Universe by some group or coalition of the First Ones.
Considering just how unpleasant the Shadows could be, the hand must have been Really Annoying to the First Ones to get Tarred & Feathered and run out of town on a rail.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, "the light" could be that coalition of first ones. Maybe a coalition was required to take care of 'The Hand' because they were a considerable menace.

And if the first ones were already gone, as i mentionee above, the "light" could have easily been the vorlons.

Why Lorien said nothing of this to Sheridan? Well, maybe he did, we don't know. Or maybe it was so long ago, and he was so sure there would be no way for the hand to find their way back into our universe. Or maybe Lorien doesn't know about the conflict the first ones had with the hand. Remember he spent a very long time in isolation in the depths of Za'Ha'Dum.

Vorlons could be the "light" that banished the hand because it fits with the "Vorlons let them in, Vorlons escorted them out" story from 'Thirdspace'.
One does not negate the other.
It was the vorlon gate after all, that was destroyed at B5.
Vorlons also didn't go around telling their history, there could be alot more skeletons in their closet (or on their homeworld)
smile.gif




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"I walk, i shop, i sneeze. I'll be a fireman when the floods roll back. There's trees in the desert since you moved out ... and i don't sleep on a bed of bones."
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

There are alot more skeletons in the vorlon closet, lyta as vorlon remnant says so in thirdspace.

CR

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Re: Here\'s a thought...

If I remember Thirdspace correctly, was there not a whole lot of Vorlons that "jumped ships" and were enslaved by the Thirdspace telepathic trap?

Was it not these Vorlons who stole the Gate, and from whom the "good" Vorlons had to recover it from?

What happened to these "bad" Vorlons? Were they banished to Thirdspace?

And does this have anything to do with the vaguely Vorlon-encounter suit look to the Hand's "flunkies" aboard the dirty snowflakes?

I hope that, someday soon, the series will come along and reveal all...

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Re: Here\'s a thought...

About ages: from what descriptions Lorien gave, it/he/she was clearly much older than a few billion years.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>"How long have you been here?"

"A long time. So long. I was old when the molecules of your world joined and called themselves land and sea and fish ... and man.

"One of the First Ones."

"No. Not one of the First Ones. I am the first one."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lorien was old when Earth started cooling, which was several billions of years ago. Hence it/he/she was more likely to appear about ten billion years ago, with the first generation of stars, planets and galaxies.

A city billions of years old might be young even for the Shadows, who probably came quite a while after Lorien... for it taught them and they respected it greatly, always returning to Z'ha'dum to honor its presence.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 11, 2002).]
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

Joe Demartino's post made me think of something else.

When the vorlon's opened the door to Thirdspace, and the aliens that came out were the hand, well the hand could easily have mistaken the vorlons for the first ones that banished them long ago (before lorien).

It seemed to the vorlons that they were attacked without provocation. And because there was no communication, the vorlons never knew who they were dealing with. After all we never even get the name for the race except the vague "Thirdspace aliens".

Ah it's fun to speculate in the rich B5 universe
smile.gif




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"I walk, i shop, i sneeze. I'll be a fireman when the floods roll back. There's trees in the desert since you moved out ... and i don't sleep on a bed of bones."
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

I was think of Thirdspace as being kind of "outside" B5. That is, the movie seems more like a long stand-alone episode. It seems that people make a lot more out of the Thirdspace aliens than it is. It was just one of God-knows-how-many little First One secrets.

I personally would be a bit dissappointed if they connected the Hand with the Thirdspace aliens. I would hope they wouldn't have to dig up a one-shot movie as a major premise for a new series.

I would also be pissed if it turns out Lorien wasn't the First One, because they told us he was. It was presented in the show as if it were fact, not a lie or a point of ignorance by a character speaking subjectively. To make a race older than Lorien would be re-writing B5 history. That ain't their style.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
I was think of Thirdspace as being kind of "outside" B5. That is, the movie seems more like a long stand-alone episode. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


One thing I learned watching B5, it's that from JMS a little details that doesn't seem important, or related to the main plot, can most likely surprise in the futur. There's plenty of example of "stand alone" things (especially in the first season) that finally happen to be very important.

For Lorien, I'm sure that if Thirdspace is related, JMS will never butcher Lorien "importance" and nature. I thrust him on that matter.

Some people will say I'm naive to blindly thrust JMS writting. But until now, he never really give me a good reason to doubt on him.

Like any other speculations .. we'll see :)



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"You are all in violation of security ordinance 22V3A. That means get the hell out of here!
"
- Zack
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

You know, and this may have already been said, but I remember specifically in that movie....in the beginning of it or something, that they said that they never returned again....and good thing, cause they would not have survived it if they had. (of course, people would say "Sheridan was wrong" and that is possible, but I just don't see it likely)

Like others have said, it was pretty stand alone, though. While it sounds a lot like them, I kinda doubt that they would be the same. The people who sent in the probe didn't talk about funny people being telepathically turned against one another or funky dreams with a big black city about 5 miles high. (that 5 mile thing is a fav of JMS. Things just come in 5s for him)
My guess....there are simply races older than the Shadows and Vorlons. Heck, there very well could have been true first ones before both of those races who guided them, and then went beyond. It's just one big cycle.

Of course this one is a more heaven/hell type of thing. The Thirdspace aliens didn't stick around long enough in this galaxy to make every senient race have a page in their book about a place of eternal darkness, and all that. It's definately something different, for me. (the ships, while still Hand toys, were still a bit different to be compared to Thirdspace types) I sure hope it's different.


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It's like I've always said, you can get more with a kind word and a 2 by 4 than you can with just a kind word.
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

Lorien states that he was the first one to achieve sentience in the universe. Is hyperspace or thirdspace technically our universe? Or a distortion of it or an alternate dimension. Either way, Lorien is basically billions upon billions of years old, so would be a lot older than the Hand.

Re: the Thirdspace aliens...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> that they said that they never returned again...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What Sheridan actually said was that he "hoped he would never see them again" as they may not survive it.

Also "the Hand" may or not be bad, but the other parts of the body which make up "God" in this anthrapomorphic description of God may have a different agenda. The hands serve the mind and soul. Religious groups over centuries have claimed to be the Hand of God, but they are ultimately serving their belived deity. The Hand are probably only one part of a much larger, much different coalition.

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Re: Here\'s a thought...

Also, the Vorlon's quest for thirdsapce came about as an attept "to storm the gates of heaven itself," again a quote from Lyta. So even the Vorlons saw the Thirdspace aliens as Gods (which they believed they were as good as after they started buying their propoganda).

As for the Vorlons who were made telepathically bad during the incident that someone mentioned...

Remember that all the people on the station, including Vir, wen't straight back to normal once the gate was destroyed. Probably the same thing happened when they dumped the gate in Hyperspace.

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Re: Here\'s a thought...

As I recall from 3rd Space, the Vorlons were trying to reach God with their newly created doorway, and I remember a quote from the movie that said something like "but a door can swing both ways" as a lead in to who these beings are that "mentally controlled" Vorlons to fight for them and were so powerful that all the Vorlons could do was deactivate the door by destroying it's power source.

I gotta ask, if the Shadows and the Vorlons both "most certainly" knew that "the first one" was on Zha ha dum, then who was this "God" that the Vorlons were trying to reach? If the door swings both ways, then these creatures would be the Evil equivalant to "God", and if the Vorlons already knew where Lorien was, and he's not "God", there seems to be a more powerful race out there, "God", and so perhaps this race that came out the gate was more powerful (older?) than Lorien's race.

Now there is still no hard evidence that the Hand is them, but the Hand is known to be stuck in another dimension. And if the hand is suposed to be beyond the age and power of known races, and these other dimensional aliens from 3rd Space are equivalant to "God", then maybe you can have a race older and more powerful than Lorien's. ....Or they could be the last remaining Exiled of Lorien's race, and since the Vorlons couldn't get to Lorien himself, they tried to contact the only others like him??

I hope JMS can still work it out to leave Lorien as the First One, at least from some kind of point of view.

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"Humanity IS my business"
or the always popular
"You can get farther with a kind word and a 2 b four, than you can with just a kind word"
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

On another aspect, I have only seen a few references to the visions Kosh put in Sheridan's mind when Sheridan was abducted. There were things that never really fit the original series; Sheridan in a PSI cop uniform (supposed to be Al Bester? I don't buy that one), and "you are THE HAND" (a reference to how Sheridan is a nexus and can influence people at large with his own personal choice of direction, which there are people like this who exert no observable influence, but carry others with them...but is this what it means? Or are THE HAND some how a legacy of Sheridan's actions, accidental or otherwise?)
Well, I'm probably cracked, but these are what come to mind. And I agree with the connection to Third Space theory, it seems to fit the alternate demension (could there be "an equal and opposite" of Sheridan in this alternate dimension?)


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"Humanity IS my business"
or the always popular
"You can get farther with a kind word and a 2 b four, than you can with just a kind word"
 
Re: Here\'s a thought...

Sheridan in a Psi-Cops uniform may simply mean that Sheridan will be leading telepaths. However, it was not referenced as meaning that.

I personally thought it meant Sheridan will turn out to be a teep but JMS has denied that one. It may have been a reference to a lost story of Season 4 or 5. Something may happen in the Teep War. Sheridan can resist Lyta - that may be foreshadowing something.

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Andrew Swallow
 
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