How good are the script books?

[Telepath]

Done - I finished watching all five seasons again Still, even though I have made peace with the loss of Catherine Sakai after S1, especially in S4 the Sinclair arc seems awfully grafted onto Sheridan, which spoils my enjoyment of that wonderful season.

Well, perhaps I am reading too much into things, and I wanted to know the original arc anyway, so I consider getting the series of script books. For such a copious amount of money (international shipping and customs included, roughly 650 US Dollars, I want to have some real answers.

Here's my question to those of you who own the books: Are they worth it? I'm especially interested in Sinclair/Sheridan changes, the original fates of characters dropped from the show etc. Are these things done away with quickly or does JMS really get into them?

 

[raw_bean]

Short answer - yes. In my opinion.

So far JMS has gone into a fair amount of detail (not as much as I'd like, but would anything ever meet that?) about his reasoning, and the circumstances, behind story decisions. Obviously there's stuff that hasn't been covered yet, with hopefully a pretty revealing bit in the bonus Volume 15 for example. A fair amount of stuff can ebe found in his archived newsgroup postings (which I'm currently about 2/3 of the way through mining - a Herculean task!) though some stuff he's only able (emotionally or professionally) to talk about now that it's all long over. Some stuff that has been covered fairly in depth are:

- The reasoning (story wise) behind the insertion of Sheridan and the change of direction for Sinclair, and how this was worked in in S2.

- A full and detailed analysis of Sheridan's prohetic dream, quite interesting.

- Detail on different versions of the Z'ha'dum story, such as with Sinclair there or Kosh still alive.

- The chaos and strife around whether S4 would be the last, and how the story would be condensed while still hoping to finish some of it, either in a 11th hour pick-up of S5, or in one the myriad permutations of sequel series that were being thrown around at the time. These ideas eventually settled into first Crusade, then Legend of the Rangers, though originally JMS was thinking of more direct sequels with continuing characters from B5, like Sheridan (still as a ship Captain instead of President) or a still-alive Marcus.

For 'big revelations' like these you could just cherry pick certain Volumes, but the main reason I would say the investment in the whole series is worth it (besides the highly anticipated Volume 15) is the humourous, illuminating prose by JMS. His behind the scenes anecdotes (whilst sometimes well known from usenet posts or convention appearances) are always entertaining, you come to know the actors and characters behind the show through his writing as well as you did the characters *in* the show from it, his analyses and explanations of the episodes often illuminate things in them you'd never normally see, and the guy's just a damn good writer. I'd happily read any fiction or non-fiction prose he writes after seeing how good he is with these.

Basically, whether you get them or not is probably (as with me) going to be dictated by how voraciously you want to know things about the show and the story. I decided that I was interested enough to go the whole hog (even though I was reluctant at the expense since initially I wanted Volume 15 but would otherwise have happily skipped many other Volumes), but I don't regret the expense at all since being so pleasantly surprised by how entertaining they are even when they're not revealing big mysteries. Those big reveals become almost a bonus.

Sorry for the essay, hope this helps you make your decision.

Actually now that I think about it, I could have saved myself a lot of typing by just suggesting you buy the first one and see if it hooks you as readily as it did me, but there you are.

 

[Jan]

Here's my question to those of you who own the books: Are they worth it? I'm especially interested in Sinclair/Sheridan changes, the original fates of characters dropped from the show etc. Are these things done away with quickly or does JMS really get into them?

Are they worth it? To me, absolutely.

Will they give you what you're interested in? I can tell you right off that you won't find anything out about the Sinclair/Sheridan (or more precisely the O'hare/Boxleitner) change but you will learn how JMS 'sold' the new character to viewers and names of other actors considered for the role. Volume 11 covers the period when Claudia left so we'll soon know what, if anything, JMS has to say about that. He does touch on the changes made to the cast between the pilot and the series and other actor departures.

What you'll find is that there were things JMS wanted to do but changed his mind on or never got around to or that Real Life got in the way of. The original 1989 version of 'The Gathering' is a good illustration of that. Some memos that he shares about early proposed episodes are both familiar and startlingly different at the same time. You also get a personal look at some things that informed the stories we got.

The scripts themselves make interesting reads, too. In a number of cases, what JMS has chosen for the volumes are early drafts that may be different from what we saw onscreen. 'Soul Hunter', for instance has a 'B' story about an auditor coming to the Station that was dropped.

And you get footnotes (or parentheticals). Sometimes pictures. Sometimes memos. Each volume is competely individual. I'd suggest picking up Volume 1 and seeing if it's to your taste.

Jan

 

[raw_bean]

Jan, it sounded to me like Telepath was more interested in Sinclair -> Sheridan story changes than O'Hare -> Boxleitner behind the scenes stuff. In which case the books do get into the reasoning (from a story perspective) when discussing things like the more personal connection to the Shadows needed (ie, Anna Sheridan) that would have necessitated adding a character like Sheridan in in some capacity even if Sinclair stayed, as it was too late to 'coincidentally' ret-con a connection to the Shadows into Sinclair's backstory, or introduce one while he was still obsessing over the Earth-Minbari war and the Battle of the Line.

But anyway, we came to the same conclusion: 'try one and see what you think' .

EDIT: Telepath, in terms of 'original fates of characters dropped from the show' you do get some. The Lyta -> Talia -> Lyta situation, for example.

 

[Jan]

You're right, Raw Bean. I plead lack of sleep for my lack of reading comprehension.

Jan

 

[Telepath]

First, thanks for your help guys I really appreciate it. I cannot help thinking about B5 possibilities / original inception etc., though. Perhaps you want to share your thoughts with me on some of the arguments below?

necessitated adding a character like Sheridan in in some capacity even if Sinclair stayed, as it was too late to 'coincidentally' ret-con a connection to the Shadows into Sinclair's backstory, or introduce one while he was still obsessing over the Earth-Minbari war and the Battle of the Line.

Actually, I would really like to see the original outline right now *sigh*. I know that JMS did not want to involve Sinclair with the shadows on a personal level because he began to think that everything revolved around one single character, to the point of stretching credibility to a breaking point.

The problem seemed to be that it was an awful lot to do for a single man - train the rangers, fight the shadows, break away from earth, fight earth, perhaps resolve the minbari civil war etc. But I think that if you take away "train the rangers" (a thread which could also have been attached to Delenn, imho), we almost have what is done by Sheridan in the end (except the Minbari civil war), and I think it would not have been too much of a stretch to have Catherine Sakai become a Ranger, then go missing at the end of S2 (at the time Sheridan learns of the Icarus' fate).

Indeed, it would have been much more dramatic to hit Sinclair in the face with Sakai's fate at the end of S3 and the betrayal of Garibaldi at the end of S4. Especially when you consider that Lise Hampton was introduced at the end of S1 as a means to get Garibaldi involved with the shadows in case Sinclair had stayed (perhaps he would have been blackmailed?).

See, my problems with S4 are that so many things point to Sinclair instead of Sheridan. Garibaldi's view that the crusade against earth is not about principles, it's about the man, "his transcendence" who came back from death. Sinclair as Entil'Zha would have fit that transcendent and "cult of personality" role better. Earth psychologists explain that war sickness can make people want to look like those who defeated them (the Minbari) - again, that would fit Sinclair, who suffered a traumatic defeat at the Battle of the Line and dresses like a Minbari.

Sinclair's close ties to the Minbari that rose suspicions on Earth even in S1 and were laid out so carefully would have paid off in S4. The crews of ships loyal to earth are told by EarthGov they would be killed and replaced by Minbari if they surrendered. I think with Sinclair dressed as the Entil'Zha, xenophobia would have set in much more easily. The hole in his mind, his alien garments, his traumatic defeat at the Battle of the Line - all could have been used against him effectively in a propaganda war that simply does not fit Sheridan as well.

Well, that's my point. Comments are most welcome

 

[raw_bean]

You know, that's all very interesting stuff that hadn't occurred to me before, Telepath. However, one thing about the way it turned out that I really love, is that we kind of get two incredible "Hero's Journey" myth-arcs instead of just one: The Sinclair\Valen\B4 story that culminates in War Without End, and the Sheridan-Kosh-Lorien\Z'ha'adum\3rd-age-of-man story that culminates in Sleeping In Light.

How many other shows give you TWO Messiahs for the price of ONE?

On a more serious note, while you may be right that the Zen-like, introspective and philosophical, tortured and brooding Sinclair might have slotted better into the whole Messiah-role, cult-of-personality, mythical story, that could be seen as a reason NOT to go that way. I think I remember reading JMS talk about how interesting he thought it was to instead present us with a new character, a cheerful, charismatic and pragmatic man initially, who becomes a more Sinclair-type character over time. To have us along for the ride, living through with him all the things that lead him from a humble, naive beginning to a spiritual destiny, as with any typical "Hero's Journey" - like Luke Skywalker's for example. While Michael O'Hare brilliantly pulled off such a character from the get-go, I thought it was even better to see Bruce Boxleitner take us there over a period of time, and I have nothing but praise for him as Sheridan.

In the end I think they both became quite seperate as characters. I can't picture in my mind Boxleitner as the fatalistic Entil'zha taking his journey with B4 to the past to live as Valen among the Minbari, but neither can I picture O'Hare delivering the forceful and stirring bombastic speeches after the return from Z'ha'adum or after hearing about the civilian bombing of seceding EA colonies that Sheridan did. Not in the same way, anyway.

EDIT: PS. No worries, Jan, we've all been there.

 

[Recoil]

In which case the books do get into the reasoning (from a story perspective) when discussing things like the more personal connection to the Shadows needed (ie, Anna Sheridan) that would have necessitated adding a character like Sheridan in in some capacity even if Sinclair stayed, as it was too late to 'coincidentally' ret-con a connection to the Shadows into Sinclair's backstory, or introduce one while he was still obsessing over the Earth-Minbari war and the Battle of the Line.

I don't think this is true. It was pretty clear to me that Sinclair's girlfriend-turned-fiancee Cathrine Sakai would have been that personal connection. She worked deep space exploration, taking her to planets like Sigma 957 where she already got in trouble with one of the First Ones. I think it is rather obvious that somewhere after Sinclair and her were married in Season 2, she would have "disappeared" out near the rim doing more exploring for IPX, when she would have stumbled across Z'Ha'Dum. She would have been the one returning at the end of Season 3 in Anna Sheridan's place.

I think the framework and idea was already there, its just when O'Hare left the show and BB came in, they took Sakai's arc and gave it to Anna Sheridan. It can't be a coincidence that BOTH of them ended up working with IPX and exploring things out on the rim...right?

 

[Telepath]

I think it is rather obvious that somewhere after Sinclair and her were married in Season 2, she would have "disappeared" out near the rim doing more exploring for IPX, when she would have stumbled across Z'Ha'Dum.

I have been thinking just that for a very long time, but JMS has explicitly stated that Sinclair was never meant to go to Z'ha'dum, and Catherine Sakai has one of the longest characterizations in the B5 series bible. I think she would have been a regular for at least one more season (S2) before running into trouble with IPX or the shadows.

raw_bean: I think the problem is that the story of messiah 1 still features prominently in the arc of messiah 2. What gives me a headache every time when going through B5 is that I liked the character of Sheridan. I always try to convince myself that the change is for the better. The events around Sheridan produce strong emotional responses which transfer directly to the audience. In Sinclair's case, his detached demeanor prohibits such identification. Often, I would think "stop looking like a beaten dog, do something". On the other hand, Sinclair's character as the brooding, fatalistic and spiritual man would have given the shadow threat and the darkness around B5 much greater weight - and would have allowed the original arc to step forward.

B5 is great as a series, no doubt about it - and perhaps it would not have been as enjoyable with Sinclair as the central character. But we will never know.

[EDIT] I think you got a very good point there:

However, one thing about the way it turned out that I really love, is that we kind of get two incredible "Hero's Journey" myth-arcs instead of just one: The Sinclair\Valen\B4 story that culminates in War Without End, and the Sheridan-Kosh-Lorien\Z'ha'adum\3rd-age-of-man story that culminates in Sleeping In Light.

Now that is definitely true. And, as I hinted at before, perhaps we could not have indulged with a suffering man for five full seasons who gets beaten again at every turn (Battle of the Line, Sakai, Garibaldi, etc.). Sinclair never develops energy, never creates an electrifying aura as powerful as that of Sheridan (though perhaps he may have done so in later seasons). As a story, the suffering man who still has the strength within him to fight for a cause is great, but perhaps it wouldn't have worked on TV over the course of 110 episodes.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Given what we see of Sinclair in S1 I also don't think he had the presence, charisma or sheer force of personality to pull together the other races the way that Sheridan did in Seasons 2-4.

 

[raw_bean]

I don't think this is true. It was pretty clear to me that Sinclair's girlfriend-turned-fiancee Cathrine Sakai would have been that personal connection. She worked deep space exploration, taking her to planets like Sigma 957 where she already got in trouble with one of the First Ones. I think it is rather obvious that somewhere after Sinclair and her were married in Season 2, she would have "disappeared" out near the rim doing more exploring for IPX, when she would have stumbled across Z'Ha'Dum. She would have been the one returning at the end of Season 3 in Anna Sheridan's place.

I think the framework and idea was already there, its just when O'Hare left the show and BB came in, they took Sakai's arc and gave it to Anna Sheridan. It can't be a coincidence that BOTH of them ended up working with IPX and exploring things out on the rim...right?

Except that as JMS saw it (and I can see his point), that would have been rather a mighty coincidence, hence why he has said he'd want to bring in a Sheridan-like character with a connection with the shadows regardless, because Sinclair had enough going on with him with the whole Line\soul\Valen thing. He already had a pre-ordained destiny, conversely Sheridan was a man pulled into the conflict in a personal way rather than a mystical way.

--------

Good points, GHair and Telepath.

 

[Chris Springob]

Are the script books worth it? They're worth it to me. However, I'd like to throw some caveats in there. If one did not need to purchase all of them in order to get the special 15th volume, then I probably wouldn't be buying all of them. Also, if there was a way to pay a discounted price for just the JMS commentaries without the scripts themselves, I would probably take it, as I'm not as interested in the scripts themselves. It is cool that several of the scripts are alternate versions...earlier drafts that got changed....but most of them are *not* alternate versions. Or even if they are, usually about 90% of the script is the same as the filmed version. For example, it was cool to see the alt version of "Severed Dreams", with General Hague included, and the Vorlon intervention at the end, but really, it was almost identical to the final product, with just a couple of minor changes, and virtually all of Hague's dialogue transplanted directly to Major Ryan.

Regarding JMS's discussion of alternate variations to the story arc: It seems like most of the "what might have been" discussions in the script books are about alternate variations of specific episodes or discarded story ideas for single episodes, moreso than it is about variations in the overall arc. Most of the stuff about alt versions of the big picture is presented in the old memos that JMS was able to dig up. But a lot of that stuff is presented without any context, so it's hard to know what exactly JMS had in mind or why he changed it. For example, Script Book 5 includes a memo on the planned direction for Season 3 written way back in April 1995. In describing the events of "Z'ha'dum", JMS wrote in this memo:

Possible element: fleeing after Sheridan's death, they escape into B4's still-unstable time rift, emerging 20 years later, where Sheridan, vastly changed, is revived, and things are very interesting indeed. This may get postponed until year four.

It sounds like some variation of the flashforward from WWE. But we're not left with any explanation of how this would have worked, or why JMS chose to include those events in WWE. So the script books give you some tantalizing questions like this, but it doesn't give you a neat rundown of how each of these alternate story ideas would have worked, if that's what you're looking for. (Though a lot of this stuff may become more clear when we get the full "original" story arc description in Book 15.)

Anyway, my advice is to buy one of the script books and see how much you like it. Then you can decide whether to buy more of them. No need to commit to spending all that $ upfront.

 

[KoshN]

- A full and detailed analysis of Sheridan's prohetic dream, quite interesting.

- Detail on different versions of the Z'ha'dum story, such as with Sinclair there or Kosh still alive.

Which volume or volumes were these in?

- The chaos and strife around whether S4 would be the last, and how the story would be condensed while still hoping to finish some of it, either in a 11th hour pick-up of S5, or in one the myriad permutations of sequel series that were being thrown around at the time. These ideas eventually settled into first Crusade, then Legend of the Rangers, though originally JMS was thinking of more direct sequels with continuing characters from B5, like Sheridan (still as a ship Captain instead of President) or a still-alive Marcus.

Wouldn't that be in the upcoming Vol. 11?

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Wouldn't that be in the upcoming Vol. 11?

Nope, that was in the recent Vol 10.

 

[raw_bean]

Indeed. Vol 11 will take it up from there with the tumultuous series of events that lead to the S5 we got.

As for the other stuff, if I remember tonight I'll check which books I'm thinking of for those things, though thye should surely be the ones that include the relevant scripts for those episodes (Z'ha'adum and All Alone in the Night.)

 

[KoshN]

Nope, that was in the recent Vol 10.

Have Vol. 10, but I've only read the intro., and that was over a month ago.

 

[Recoil]

Except that as JMS saw it (and I can see his point), that would have been rather a mighty coincidence, hence why he has said he'd want to bring in a Sheridan-like character with a connection with the shadows regardless, because Sinclair had enough going on with him with the whole Line\soul\Valen thing. He already had a pre-ordained destiny, conversely Sheridan was a man pulled into the conflict in a personal way rather than a mystical way.

That may be the Party Line, but I don't think I'll ever be convinced that is ENTIRELY what happened. It may have been a part of it, or something in the back of his mind he was formulating, but I still believe there were other factors that lead to O'Hare flat-out leaving the series. Factors we will probably never truly know about.

And, as a result, I think the original concept was for Sakai to be the one who explores out near Z'Ha'Dum and gets captured/converted by the Shadows. I'm not saying Sinclair was ever meant to go to Z'Ha'Dum, but I do believe that Sakai was originally meant to be touched/used by the Shadows at some point.

 

[Telepath]

Thanks Chris, your post has helped me make a decision I think I'll get one of the books, and if I don't like it, I'll wait for the 5-year plan to appear on the net... shouldn't take too long I suppose But I'm also interested in other possibilities, as you described.

That may be the Party Line, but I don't think I'll ever be convinced that is ENTIRELY what happened. It may have been a part of it, or something in the back of his mind he was formulating, but I still believe there were other factors that lead to O'Hare flat-out leaving the series. Factors we will probably never truly know about.

And, as a result, I think the original concept was for Sakai to be the one who explores out near Z'Ha'Dum and gets captured/converted by the Shadows. I'm not saying Sinclair was ever meant to go to Z'Ha'Dum, but I do believe that Sakai was originally meant to be touched/used by the Shadows at some point.

I agree 100%. I do not think it would have been the slightest "stretch" for Sakai to create a connection to Sinclair. The Valen thing is 1 factor only, it's not 3 (line / Valen / soul). He could easily have been connected to Shadows on a personal and Minbari on a prophetical level. Speaking of stretches, think of "In the Beginning" and the doc-and-Sheridan-peacetalk mission

 

[Jan]

Factors we will probably never truly know about.

I think, given what JMS wrote in Volume 3, that it's pretty much guaranteed that only the four people in the room at the time the change took place ever will know all of it.

And, as a result, I think the original concept was for Sakai to be the one who explores out near Z'Ha'Dum and gets captured/converted by the Shadows. I'm not saying Sinclair was ever meant to go to Z'Ha'Dum, but I do believe that Sakai was originally meant to be touched/used by the Shadows at some point.

That, however, we probably *will* find out in Volume 15 when the original arc document comes out.

One particularly nice thing about the script books is that it's become more and more obvious to people that the arc was planned but the stories weren't. JMS has said over and over again that he always left room to go off in a new and different direction if he saw one on the way down the arc path.

Jan

 

[Recoil]

Awesome.

I ordered script books I through III the other day so will be starting on those. I have a feeling there was sort of a "Gentleman's Agreement" made regarding O'hare, and probably for many reasons, some that were out of JMS's control. However I say Gentlman's agreement because O'Hare did reprise his role twice to allow for his story to continue and bring it to closure, so whatever he did behind closed doors, and for whatever reasons, he did the right thing by the actor, and the story was able to be told as it should, which is great.

Also looking forward to some of these later volumes to hear about all the possibilities. I think the Ivanova/Byron possible arc (if thats true) had she not left would be interesting to hear about too...