I Have A New WORST B5 Episode, and it is....

[Springer]

I don't think any guest stars have ruined an episode for me – if they're bad I tend to just ignore them and it still shouldn't detract from the script. I like Legacies, Eyes and Survivors regardless of their guest stars – never understood the hate for Survivors, I found it a fun Garibaldi episode, him interacting with Londo and G'Kar, Lou Welch, bit more of Down Below, bit of action, Jerry Doyle getting to go all Bruce Willis at the end, first time we see Earth Force One and the first really good look at the Cobra Bays.

Maybe TKO and Born to the Purple are close to the nadir - but you can kind of excuse them as it's season one and they're still experimenting and finding their feet – that's what I liked about B5, it wasn't afraid to try something even if it failed (where else would you find a TV episode that has bare-knuckle fighting one scene and the next a Jewish ceremony?). A View from the Gallery was season five! It doesn't have those excuses.

I think the difference is the poor episodes from season one are honest in trying to tell a good story, even if they fail. A View from the Gallery is too much nudge-nudge wink-wink. It's like the show had got too smug with itself. Of course, some might say Byron was on hand to bring it back down a peg...

 

[Psi Cop]

Maybe TKO and Born to the Purple are close to the nadir - but you can kind of excuse them as it's season one and they're still experimenting and finding their feet

Born To The Purple was quite good - Trakis was an interesting character and Londo's love for Adira would be important for later plot development.

 

[Springer]

Maybe TKO and Born to the Purple are close to the nadir - but you can kind of excuse them as it's season one and they're still experimenting and finding their feet

Born To The Purple was quite good - Trakis was an interesting character and Londo's love for Adira would be important for later plot development.

Peter Jurasik was definitely having fun with his character in that. And it was good to see that side of Londo so early on. G'Kar never really had that aspect to him, other than his lust for human women. And that was another risk the show took: rather than Sinclair or Garibaldi being the first to get a love interest in the series proper, it was the guy with the funny hair instead.

Yeah, I'll take it back – it's not great but its not terrible either, though its one of my least favourite of the season.

 

[KoshN]

So I wrote a really long reply but got timed out and lost it all, so I'll try and summarise what I said.

I HATE THAT! It used to happen to me a lot, so I got into the habit of copying my entire reply, including the quoted parts, BEFORE hitting Submit Reply.

 

[Ubik]

‘Infection’ was the one episode that stopped a close friend of mine from watching the show. It’s why I sometimes use a ‘abridged’ season one approach sometimes. After that episode he declared he ‘couldn’t take any more’ despite my reassurances that it was worth persevering with. I find it hard to disagree with him, it’s a stinker of an episode. I think my own tastes are generally in line with Kevin’s run down on Season one episodes. The only ones I usually skip are the aforementioned ‘Infection’ and ‘Eyes’. The rest I enjoy for one reason or another.

I think I’d have to re-watch ‘View from the Gallery’ to form any kind of opinion on it. I don’t remember particularly disliking it. I think it was one of the few episodes that Harlan Ellison got a writing credit for.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I don't think any guest stars have ruined an episode for me – if they're bad I tend to just ignore them and it still shouldn't detract from the script. I like Legacies, Eyes and Survivors regardless of their guest stars – never understood the hate for Survivors, I found it a fun Garibaldi episode, him interacting with Londo and G'Kar, Lou Welch, bit more of Down Below, bit of action, Jerry Doyle getting to go all Bruce Willis at the end, first time we see Earth Force One and the first really good look at the Cobra Bays.

Maybe TKO and Born to the Purple are close to the nadir - but you can kind of excuse them as it's season one and they're still experimenting and finding their feet – that's what I liked about B5, it wasn't afraid to try something even if it failed (where else would you find a TV episode that has bare-knuckle fighting one scene and the next a Jewish ceremony?). A View from the Gallery was season five! It doesn't have those excuses.

I think the difference is the poor episodes from season one are honest in trying to tell a good story, even if they fail. A View from the Gallery is too much nudge-nudge wink-wink. It's like the show had got too smug with itself. Of course, some might say Byron was on hand to bring it back down a peg...

I would agree with all of that.

The comparison I like to use is this: A clunky episode in season 1 is still better than a clunky episode in season 5 because the show is like a new girlfriend. You're still learning about each other, it's still exciting, engaging. Even if the restraunt sucks, the company is nice, and you get a funny story out of it. In season 5, you've been dating, dating seriously, engaged, married, and now you're wondering if it was a mistake. Clearly they're just not trying.

Incidentally, I think the juxtaposition of the Mutai and Shiva was kind of brilliant in concept, I just think it was really poorly done in actual direction, mostly 'cuz the fight was too long.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Maybe TKO and Born to the Purple are close to the nadir - but you can kind of excuse them as it's season one and they're still experimenting and finding their feet

Born To The Purple was quite good - Trakis was an interesting character and Londo's love for Adira would be important for later plot development.

Sadly, Sinclair's performance kills that episode. HIs tone is all off, and it asks us to assume too much that doesn't make sense. The idea that a bumbling oaf like Londo has secrets that could actually bring down the government is unbelievable at that point in the series. Yeah, if Trakis simply wanted to bribe people with the info, fine, but destroy the govt? Unlikely.

Basically dial that episode back about two notches and it works.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

The quoting system's gone all wonky, so we'll do this the old fashioned way:

UBIK said: "‘Infection’ was the one episode that stopped a close friend of mine from watching the show. It’s why I sometimes use a ‘abridged’ season one approach sometimes. After that episode he declared he ‘couldn’t take any more’ despite my reassurances that it was worth persevering with. I find it hard to disagree with him, it’s a stinker of an episode. I think my own tastes are generally in line with Kevin’s run down on Season one episodes."

JMS once said (In SFU, IIRC) that if there was one episode of season 1 he could have fall off a dock into the ocean and be lost forever, it'd be "Infection." He said something like "We're six weeks into our series, and we're doing a rubber suit monster episode."

I didn't hate it at the time, mostly 'cuz no other show did Rubber Suit Monsters anymore, so it wa a nice change of pace. But beyond that, it was sub-par. The part that lost me, though, was the entirely-illogical conflict between Vance and Franklin, where Vance is discovering technologies that can help people, and Franklin is giving him guff about how he's "Not doing the work," that he's just slapping his name on stuff other people discovered ages ago. This makes NO logical sense, unless you're suggesting that every doctor who does eye surgery needs to figure out the entire process from scratch himself before he starts. It's a ludicrous argument, slows the ep to a halt, and it's just dumb. B5 was seldom dumb.

Even still, I liked the episode toelrably becasue it's got David McCallum in it, and because in retrospect, it felt like it migh have been foreshadowing for the Crusade Technomage Arc. Then JMS told me that, no, it had nothing to do with that, just a coincidence, and, ah, screw it, I don't like it anymore. <G>

UBIK also said: " I think I’d have to re-watch ‘View from the Gallery’ to form any kind of opinion on it. I don’t remember particularly disliking it. I think it was one of the few episodes that Harlan Ellison got a writing credit for."

Mr. E. Himself told me he didn't write it. He said he mentioned the idea of doing an episode that focused on nobodies in maintenence or whatever, as they crossed path with the bigwigs, a worm's eye view of a day in the life. (He was evidently unaware that TNG's "Lower Decks" had already done this. JMS seems to have been unaware of that as well). He said that was all he did, just an idea in passing. JMS wrote the whole thing in one day, and then gave Harlan co-writing credit because JMS is good like that. He said early on (Again, in SFU) that he's already getting paid as a producer and show runner and head writer and stuff, he didn't need another paycheck. Basically if some guest writer wrote something, and JMS made changes to it, then JMS was within his rights to take co-writer credit on it (A lot of producers do this. A LOT) but JMS had been a struggling writer himself for a long time, so his opinion was "I don't need the cash or prestiege, so they can take all the credit and the money."

This is evidently some variation on what happened w/ AVFTG, where JMS just wanted to give him credit, even though paper never touched pen.

Incidentally, JMS has said this ep was written in less than 24 hours. It shows. It's not even trying.

 

[Springer]

Incidentally, JMS has said this ep was written in less than 24 hours. It shows. It's not even trying.

At the Blackpool convention in 97 just before the start of season five JMS had all his notes for season 5 thrown out by hotel cleaning staff – maybe that contributed to having to rush to put together the opening episodes.

The two Blackpool conventions were probably the best conventions I've ever been to, although the best way to describe the 97 event is probably 'organised chaos'. Credit to JMS you'd never have known at the convention what was going on behind the scenes with his lost notes and Claudia Christian leaving.

 

[KoshN]

Incidentally, JMS has said this ep was written in less than 24 hours. It shows. It's not even trying.

At the Blackpool convention in 97 just before the start of season five JMS had all his notes for season 5 thrown out by hotel cleaning staff – maybe that contributed to having to rush to put together the opening episodes.

The two Blackpool conventions were probably the best conventions I've ever been to, although the best way to describe the 97 event is probably 'organised chaos'. Credit to JMS you'd never have known at the convention what was going on behind the scenes with his lost notes and Claudia Christian leaving.

....and trying to get the entire cast to sign contract extensions so they'd be available for Season 5.

 

[Jan]

Quick clarification: Harlan doesn't have a writing credit for either 'A View from the Gallery' or 'Objects in Motion'. He got story credit along with JMS. Different pay scale.

Suffice to say that Harlan got proper credit for having gently and graciously
suggested this story for five years, which is one of the few times more than one
writer was credited on a script in the history of B5. That the character of Mack
(according to some) bears a striking resemblance in many ways to Harlan is
unfathomable to me and can only be ascribed to inexplicable and wholly
unintentional coincidence.

(I suspect JMS tongue was definitely in his cheek with that last comment. ;-)

ETA: The option extensions had been signed a month before. The actual contracts were what needed to be signed in Blackpool, before those extensions expired. That was why the rush.

Jan

 

[ranger phil]

Incidentally, JMS has said this ep was written in less than 24 hours. It shows. It's not even trying.

At the Blackpool convention in 97 just before the start of season five JMS had all his notes for season 5 thrown out by hotel cleaning staff – maybe that contributed to having to rush to put together the opening episodes.

The two Blackpool conventions were probably the best conventions I've ever been to, although the best way to describe the 97 event is probably 'organised chaos'. Credit to JMS you'd never have known at the convention what was going on behind the scenes with his lost notes and Claudia Christian leaving.

only went to the 97 one, and one day only (all I could get off work at the time) on the saturday. Twas epic. My best memory of being a B5 fan by far.

 

[Ubik]

At the Blackpool convention in 97 just before the start of season five JMS had all his notes for season 5 thrown out by hotel cleaning staff – maybe that contributed to having to rush to put together the opening episodes.

The two Blackpool conventions were probably the best conventions I've ever been to, although the best way to describe the 97 event is probably 'organised chaos'. Credit to JMS you'd never have known at the convention what was going on behind the scenes with his lost notes and Claudia Christian leaving.

I imagine it was a definite contributing factor. I mean, that whole situation left them very little time to get up and running. It must have been a REALLY difficult time for Joe. I can imagine his stress levels being through the roof. The notes being thrown out was a definite setback, and to have to then re-do everything from memory in terms of the S5’s structure, that can’t have been much fun. It’s no wonder S5 has its flaws.

JMS has talked about being a bit burnt out when Crusade got going, but I can imagine he must have been under a lot of pressure and very tired by the time they got S5 off the ground. When you look at the odds he was up against, it’s a wonder S5 is as good as it is.

Plus, it’s always going to pale in comparison to the arc heavy Season 4, which was chock full of ongoing plot and big events. I still wonder what might have been, had JMS been allowed to spread out his plot lines between S4 and S5.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

QUote thing is down again. Anway, Springer said:

"At the Blackpool convention in 97 just before the start of season five JMS had all his notes for season 5 thrown out by hotel cleaning staff – maybe that contributed to having to rush to put together the opening episodes."

I agree, and it shows. I'd heard it was just the first 5-7 episodes, however, not the whole season. That tracks with what we saw, as about a third of the year does seem rudderless.

I have often wondered why JMS didn't just bring in other writers to fill in the gap. "Here's what I need, and when I need it by..."

Or maybe he did. "Day of the Dead" sucked, and definitely deserves to be on the list of "Worst Episodes." And I know Peter David wrote one that JMS ended up rejecting...

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Quotes thing isn't working.

Ubik said "JMS has talked about being a bit burnt out when Crusade got going, but I can imagine he must have been under a lot of pressure and very tired by the time they got S5 off the ground. When you look at the odds he was up against, it’s a wonder S5 is as good as it is."

I can see that. In addition to switching networks, losing 1/10th of his production time per episode, losing Claudia, etc, he was also in preproduction for 4 TV movies and a new series, and re-cutting another movie. That's too much.

JMS said he was having dinner with an (Unnamed) friend when he got the call that Crusade was dead. His friend said, "Good. It wasn't your best work. Best to just let it go, and move on to something new that will be better." Since that makes his friend sound kind of like a dick (Though he certainly meant it to be encouraging) JMS has never confirmed who it was, though I suspected and asked, and the friend confirmed saying it to me.

ANd sad as I was to see it go, the friend was right. The whole TNT thing was a debacle.

Hell, you want to reboot something? Let's just reboot S5. That's it. Everything up to the end of S4 counts, and then a mysterious plastic surgery ray hits the station and changes everyone's voice and appearance, and we pull a Mulligan on all S5.

I'd be cool with that. How 'bout you?

 

[KoshN]

Quotes thing isn't working.

Ubik said "JMS has talked about being a bit burnt out when Crusade got going, but I can imagine he must have been under a lot of pressure and very tired by the time they got S5 off the ground. When you look at the odds he was up against, it’s a wonder S5 is as good as it is."

I can see that. In addition to switching networks, losing 1/10th of his production time per episode, losing Claudia, etc, he was also in preproduction for 4 TV movies and a new series, and re-cutting another movie. That's too much.

JMS said he was having dinner with an (Unnamed) friend when he got the call that Crusade was dead. His friend said, "Good. It wasn't your best work. Best to just let it go, and move on to something new that will be better." Since that makes his friend sound kind of like a dick (Though he certainly meant it to be encouraging) JMS has never confirmed who it was, though I suspected and asked, and the friend confirmed saying it to me.

ANd sad as I was to see it go, the friend was right. The whole TNT thing was a debacle.

Crusade is better than anything JMS has done in the B5 universe since B5, and without the TNT idiots (and I am using that in the I.Q. sense, 0-25), Crusade could've been salvaged. It could've been made to be great. IT should be rebooted as I've said above.

Hell, you want to reboot something? Let's just reboot S5. That's it. Everything up to the end of S4 counts, and then a mysterious plastic surgery ray hits the station and changes everyone's voice and appearance, and we pull a Mulligan on all S5.

I'd be cool with that. How 'bout you?

Can't. It wouldn't match visually with the end of Season 4, due to so many years having elapsed.

 

[Springer]

I have often wondered why JMS didn't just bring in other writers to fill in the gap. "Here's what I need, and when I need it by..."

I think part of the problem by then was that he didn't have a story editor after Larry DiTillio left and working with the freelance scriptwriters, editing them etc would take up almost as much of his time as writing the episodes himself. Neil Gaiman being the exception as JMS had been courting him to write an episode for some time.

Or maybe he did. "Day of the Dead" sucked, and definitely deserves to be on the list of "Worst Episodes." And I know Peter David wrote one that JMS ended up rejecting...

That's going to be a... controversial statement! I mean personally I don't have a strong opinion on the episode – I think it's fine, some interesting character moments, some fun parts, competently written although not necessarily my favourite episode, but to put it on a list of worst episodes? Not for me.

The lost Peter David episode was the one he co-wrote with Bill Mumy?

 

[Ubik]

Crusade is better than anything JMS has done in the B5 universe since B5, and without the TNT idiots (and I am using that in the I.Q. sense, 0-25), Crusade could've been salvaged. It could've been made to be great. IT should be rebooted as I've said above.

Hard to disagree with that. But the competition isn’t exactly steep is it? Rangers (outright awful!) and The Lost Tales (so, so). I agree Crusade had potential, but it was produced at the wrong time, with an idiotic network, and with the wrong budget (far too low). Crusade felt too much like a rushed job to me, and looking at the circumstances under which it was came to fruition, that’s probably an accurate assessment. JMS talked himself into continuing B5 in some way to placate the existing cast and gave in to his own fears of doing something new. He says as much in the Crusade WTHH books. I’d liken it to staying in a relationship because it’s familiar and easy, but deep down you know it’s no longer fulfilling for either party.

Visually, it feels outdated and well behind the curve of SFTV at that point. Production values had improved, so had CGI standards, but for the most part Crusade looks clunky at best. Cheap sets and lamentably bad CGI. Some of the designs are cool, but the implementation screams ‘we have no money!’.

I don’t think we can blame everything on TNT, as I find a lot of the writing a bit weak, and struggle to make it through the episodes that were produced. I’ve re-watched it a few times, and every time I convince myself that it must have some merit I’m missing, but as it stands I can’t get too excited about it. An episode like ‘Visitors from down the Street’ should have never made it off JMS desk, it’s his schoolboy humour at its very worst.

The one episode I liked was ‘The Path of Sorrows’, to me that actually felt like something that belonged in the B5 universe. It had the quality of writing I’d come to expect and did a great job of enriching the characters. The rest, just didn’t do that much for me. Sorry.

Crusade could easily be re-booted, but it’d need a lot of work to make the cut. Sadly, I think it’s time has passed.

Hell, you want to reboot something? Let's just reboot S5. That's it. Everything up to the end of S4 counts, and then a mysterious plastic surgery ray hits the station and changes everyone's voice and appearance, and we pull a Mulligan on all S5.

I'd be cool with that. How 'bout you?

Nah, cause as flawed as S5 is, I don’t think it’s a good jumping off point to revise things. Also, it does have its good moments - the conclusion of the Centauri prime arc is solid, even if we had to endure singing L’Oreal ad campaign telepaths to get there.

 

[vorlonlovechild]

Crusade is better than anything JMS has done in the B5 universe since B5, and without the TNT idiots (and I am using that in the I.Q. sense, 0-25), Crusade could've been salvaged. It could've been made to be great. IT should be rebooted as I've said above.

Hard to disagree with that. But the competition isn’t exactly steep is it? Rangers (outright awful!) and The Lost Tales (so, so). I agree Crusade had potential, but it was produced at the wrong time, with an idiotic network, and with the wrong budget (far too low). Crusade felt too much like a rushed job to me, and looking at the circumstances under which it was came to fruition, that’s probably an accurate assessment. JMS talked himself into continuing B5 in some way to placate the existing cast and gave in to his own fears of doing something new. He says as much in the Crusade WTHH books. I’d liken it to staying in a relationship because it’s familiar and easy, but deep down you know it’s no longer fulfilling for either party.

Visually, it feels outdated and well behind the curve of SFTV at that point. Production values had improved, so had CGI standards, but for the most part Crusade looks clunky at best. Cheap sets and lamentably bad CGI. Some of the designs are cool, but the implementation screams ‘we have no money!’.

I don’t think we can blame everything on TNT, as I find a lot of the writing a bit weak, and struggle to make it through the episodes that were produced. I’ve re-watched it a few times, and every time I convince myself that it must have some merit I’m missing, but as it stands I can’t get too excited about it. An episode like ‘Visitors from down the Street’ should have never made it off JMS desk, it’s his schoolboy humour at its very worst.

The one episode I liked was ‘The Path of Sorrows’, to me that actually felt like something that belonged in the B5 universe. It had the quality of writing I’d come to expect and did a great job of enriching the characters. The rest, just didn’t do that much for me. Sorry.

Crusade could easily be re-booted, but it’d need a lot of work to make the cut. Sadly, I think it’s time has passed.

Hell, you want to reboot something? Let's just reboot S5. That's it. Everything up to the end of S4 counts, and then a mysterious plastic surgery ray hits the station and changes everyone's voice and appearance, and we pull a Mulligan on all S5.

I'd be cool with that. How 'bout you?

Nah, cause as flawed as S5 is, I don’t think it’s a good jumping off point to revise things. Also, it does have its good moments - the conclusion of the Centauri prime arc is solid, even if we had to endure singing L’Oreal ad campaign telepaths to get there.

S5 had massive reveals.. and virtually flunked it. We got the Drakh. Now you would have thought hey introduce a new antagonist and the series can kick on.. but then it became about saying goodbyes. We got Lytas arc and reveal regarding the Vorlons. It didnt have the impact tho because Byron....meh. Mind you at the end we got SIL... so not all bad.

Rebooting B5 from S5 is a really bad idea. You could reboot it by concentrating on one of the major story arcs tho.

 

[JonFrain]

"A View from the Gallery" was truly horrendous. But it doesn't compete with the Season 1 clunkers.

What's interesting to me is that people insisted FOR YEARS that "Gallery" was brilliant, when in fact it was a great big ol' turd from the gitgo. Suddenly opinion has changed. I wonder why?

Anyway, what season 1 clunkers are there?

I don't remember that sentiment on the B5 moderated forum after it aired. Never met anyone that thought it was brilliant. Everyone thought the two workers were annoying and crummy actors.

For clunkers just as bad as AVFTG I'd say:

10- Believers
11- Survivors
14- TKO
15- Grail
17- Legacies