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if sinclair had stayed and sheridan became valen........

  • Thread starter **DONOTDELETE**
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Joe, your argument makes sense, but you ahve no quotes to back them up. So its all pretty much silly putty<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh*

I do quote JMS ("very much the story of Jeffrey Sinclair") above. I used to have a document where I gathered all the relevant JMS quotes on this subject, but I never bothered to back-up the directory it was in and I lost when my old hard drive crashed. I supposed I'll have to root around in JMSNews and reconstruct it.

But how's this for a clue that was "hiding in plain sight":

The first season made a very big deal about Tennyson's Ulysses. It is one of JMS's favorite poems, and it informs much of his conception of the show. In S4 Sheridan mentions having found a copy that someone (presumably Sinclair) had left for him, but the association of the poem with Sheridan seems a bit forced. It was always "Sinclair's poem."

So what is Ulysses about, anyway?

It isn't (directly) about Odysseus's adventures in the Trojan War, or even his ten years of wandering after the war and before he returned home. Instead it is the story of the old Odysseus, ready to turn over his kingdom to his grown son, leave his wife for the last time, and with a band of aged followers set out on one last journey of exploration. He reflects on his past deeds and fame as he prepares to go, and admits to himself that he is not the man he once was, but is sure that he is up to the current challenge:

"...for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down;
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,--
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."

These words fit Sheridan in "SiL", but would fit the Jeffrey Sinclair of 2278, preparing to complete the circle and embrace his destiny as Valen.

Regards,

Joe




------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
I meant you don't directly have quotes in your posts. You refer to other quotes already stated above, but... it's a real pain the ass to go back and look at em. Even though this is a message board, if you are going to making an argument reffering to quotes, they should be properly quoted. Your argument would be a lot more valid if you posted the qutoes your referring to and then refer to them. Sorry... been taking damn composition class in college, I've become real anal about writing. Anyway... you know what you're talking about and I know which quotes you're referring too.

Anyway... why do people constantly debate about the Sinclair replacement? No matter what was originally planned, what happened was great and probably better for the story. I wish people would give JMS some credit. I dont' know how many times I've heard some stupid b.s. about Sheridan being a backup, and Sinclair's stuff being thrown on him! Grrrr... Oh well, as long as people continue to say ignorant crap like that, I'll continue to prove em wrong.

Although, I can sort of see Sinclair being originally meant to stay. Quite some interesteing analysis'(however you make that plural)

------------------
We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it
 
Did somebody say, “Quotations”? All of what follows is from JMS, on various on-line services on the dates indicated. You can verify each and every one of them on JMSNews. - JD:


Actually, the progression of the B5 story has been almost exactly the same as the way I write my novels. I start off knowing where the story has to go, what benchmarks I need to hit en route to the end, what my repertory group of characters consists of, and then I start writing. As someone said of a battle, an outline never survives contact with the enemy, which in this case is the actual writing.

The outline, for me, is a safety net whose purpose is to keep me nominally on track while allowing me the freedom to bounce around the landscape, adding new threads, broadening out the storylines, fleshing out the characters, and reorganizing how the characters move in and out of the story. That makes the work organic. I still end up exactly where I wanted to end up, but the road there is much more interesting than if I'd just hewed to a very rigid structure.

-- 8/14/96 CompuServe

The creative process is fluid. Has to be. Consider for a moment the position in which I find myself. Let's say I'm writing a novel. I start with a fairly clear notion of where I'm going. Six chapters in, I get a better way of doing something, so I go back and revise chapters 1-5, so it now all fits; you never see what went before. Now, compare that to a situation where you're publishing each chapter as you go, and you can't go back and change anything. (This is pretty much the situation Dickens found himself in, as he published his works chapter by chapter; you can never back up, only go forward.)

At the same time, because we're using actors who have real lives of their own, to whom things happen -- broken limbs, health problems that may preclude appearing in a given episode, sudden career changes, you name it -- you have real-life obstacles constantly in your way. The closest thing I can compare this to...is if you're on stage, in front of a large audience, and you have to do a very elaborate dance...and all the while people are throwing bowling balls and chainsaws at you. You either learn how to accommodate all that, and keep pretty much on rhythm, or you're dead.

-- CompuServe 5/10/96

Okay, alternate-universe time to answer your question.... "What if Sinclair had not left Babylon 5?" (Isn't this kinda like the Marvel What If? comics..."What If Dr. Blake's Nurse Had Been The One to Find Thor's Hammer?")

The differences would be more noticeable in the later episodes of this season, rather than the first batch, which are still dealing in large measure with the after-effects of the season finale. So the first few episodes would have been somewhat the same in some ways to what is there with Sheridan. The problem that I had was that he was becoming (and would have become) mainly a problem-solver character; there's a squabble or a problem between other characters who are rising in profile (G'Kar, Londo, Delenn, etc.), and he solves the problem in some way. These, to me, were the least interesting episodes of our prior season.

It would've been necessary to bring in another character with a direct connection to the shadowmen, since Sinclair's main connection is to the Minbari, and it would've been straining credulity to plug him too much into THAT story as well...hero of the line, missing 24 hours, Minbari soul, AND a tie to the Shadowmen...c'mon, what else does he do, fly under his own power? Had he stayed, the Shadowman tie probably would've gone to either Keffer or Garibaldi. Which, again, further removes Sinclair from the main thrust of the story. He would have stayed on as more of an observer of other people *acting*, while he *reacted*.

I can't get too specific otherwise without revealing, by contrast, what's going to happen later on this season. Suffice to say this: watch the show up to and through "The Coming of Shadows," "All Alone in the Night," "Acts of Sacrifice," and "Hunter, Prey." (That's about episode #13.) You can then ask the question again, but I have a real suspicion that once you've seen those episodes, and what Sheridan does, you won't NEED to ask, because you'll see how he fits into the overall story in a very specific fashion with is 180-degrees different than Sinclair.

-- Usenet 12/06/1994

Sheridan, or more specifically the need for someone *like* Sheridan began to get through clearly toward the latter part of last season*, as I began planning out season two's progression, and kept looking at elements of the story and trying to find ways to get Sinclair into the heart of them.* They felt contrived, for the most part; and the other characters, like Londo and G'Kar and Delenn, were *really* moving forward in a big way.

The role of Sinclair was becoming primarily that of a "problem solver," and when that happens, a sort of glass bell falls down around the character, and you can't do much with him. So what the writer has to do is break that bell in one way or another; do something totally unexpected to him, and bring in someone who has a direct, personal connection with the storyline emerging in season two, so it's not contrived or forced.

* (italics added – JD)

-- Usenet 11/11/94

To the query above, yes, BABYLON 5 has a definite beginning, middle and end. I've always enjoyed shows like that, such as THE PRISONER, which has a beginning (he arrives at the village) and an end (he escapes from the village...sorta), and good stuff in between.

All of this effort is so that we can tell A Story. A very long and involved story, about one person, mainly,* but how that person's future can affect the course of history. A saga.

* (italics added – JD)

-- GEnie 9/19/92

Regarding the last scene/last episode note, and "is every single episode mapped out," I should explain.

I know where each season will end, and where the next season will begin. Those episodes are locks. Within each season, I have set aside benchmarks... certain events that much happen at some point in that given season. Assuming a 22 episode season, about half, or 11 out of each 22, will be benchmark episodes. The other 11 will be up for grabs in terms of the general arc of the show. I think you *have* to be open to what some freelancer hits you with unexpectedly, be open to surprises and things you never considered.

-- GEnie 4/14/92


There will be continuity. I've mapped out what will happen, in general, in about half the episodes in any given season...incidents that will eventually form the tapestry of the larger story. But the other half of any given season are left completely open to what our writers might come up with.

I like being surprised, and want the show to remain open to changes in tide and wind.

-- GEnie 5/22/92

(And, Finally…)

At the end of the first season, one character will undergo a major, MAJOR change, which will start the show spinning on a very different axis. The first season will have some fairly conventional stories, but others will start the show gradually moving toward where I want it to go. One has to set these things up gradually. Events in the story -- which is very much the story of Jeffrey Sinclair* -- will speed up in each subsequent season.*

Someone he considers a friend will betray him. Another will prove to be the exact opposite of what Sinclair believes to be true. Some will live. Some will die. He will be put through a crucible of terrible force, that will change him, and alter his destiny, in a profound and terrible way...if he goes one way, or the other, will determine not only his own fate, but that of millions of others. He will grow, and become stronger, better, wiser...or be destroyed by what fate is bringing his way. In sum, it is a story of hope against terrible adversity and overwhelming odds.

That, in broad brush strokes, is a *taste* of what I plan to do with the series. I note this here because when the pilot airs, I am going to ask for your continued help in supporting the endeavor for the series, and it occurs to me that you ought to have at least SOME idea of what you're buying, and being asked to support. One should never be asked to sign a blank check on the bank of one's conscience.

Reactions?

* (italics added - JD)

-- GEnie 1/12/93

End of quotations from JMS

Somebody want to tell me again how Sinclair was “always” supposed to leave at the end of S1 and the whole story was “always” planned out exactly the way it was presented? And I haven’t even bothered appending the various posts relating to Michael O’Hare’s departure which make it clear that it was an unplanned event from both O’Hare’s and JMS’s perspective, although they were able to work it out amicably.


Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
I never understood why people insist on breaking everything down into an either-or situation.

It is obvious that both JMS was looking to deviate from his "original" plan, and that O'Hare was growing uncomfortable in his role. They found a way to work it out. Good for them.

I think the real reason this debate goes on and on (and on and on, and...) is that
1) The story went on to do great with Sheridan
2) O'Hare's departure was amicable

The first is a rarity in television. The second is a rarity in any walk of life. People are just unwilling to accept the fact that two gentlemen came to an agreement about what to do about their lives and their art, honestly and in a way that benefitted themselves and the integrity of the show.

Even I, the mighty (and extremely Cynical and pessemistic) GKarsEye can accept that this sort of thing can happen occassionally.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Wow Joe. I had seen most of the other quotes, but not that last one, about B5 beign "very much the story of Jeffery Sinclair." Well that certainly ends that debate. Lurker's guide needs to get that one up!

------------------
We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it
 
I'll admit that I'm coming in at the end of the discussion here and someone may have already brought this point up but following the story thus far, it's a near impossibilty that their roles could be reversed. Sinclair leaves at the end of S1 and in comes Sheridan S2. Similarities? Both war hero's, strong characters, tangible charismas and a strong belief in their principles. It is within these similarities that their differences are exposed. Sinclair, although not a coward, is definitely a coward and would rather find an alternative solution. Sheridan is a wild card. His movements andthought patterns are not easily guessed by anyone, not even his closest friends. The point I'm trying to make is that sinclair had to become Valen, the calmness of spirit, the clarity of thought and unshakable conviction that sinclair moves with leaves no doubt that is what his role in this game is/was. Sheridan was destined to be the driving force in the present day. The only way to swop them around within the given situation is to actually swop their personalities and that unfortunately is an impossibility or should I say fortunately.

------------------
 
I'll admit that I'm coming in at the end of the discussion here and someone may have already brought this point up but following the story thus far, it's a near impossibilty that their roles could be reversed. Sinclair leaves at the end of S1 and in comes Sheridan S2. Similarities? Both war hero's, strong characters, tangible charismas and a strong belief in their principles. It is within these similarities that their differences are exposed. Sinclair, although not a coward, is definitely a coward and would rather find an alternative solution. Sheridan is a wild card. His movements andthought patterns are not easily guessed by anyone, not even his closest friends. The point I'm trying to make is that sinclair had to become Valen, the calmness of spirit, the clarity of thought and unshakable conviction that sinclair moves with leaves no doubt that is what his role in this game is/was. Sheridan was destined to be the driving force in the present day. The only way to swop them around within the given situation is to actually swop their personalities and that unfortunately is an impossibility or should I say fortunately.

------------------
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A_Ranger:
Wow Joe. I had seen most of the other quotes, but not that last one, about B5 beign "very much the story of Jeffery Sinclair." Well that certainly ends that debate. Lurker's guide needs to get that one up!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Lurkers guide does have that quote up:
http://babylon5.cybersite.com.au/lurk/universe/five-year-overview.html

HTH.

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"SIR ALECA GUINNES CAPTIAVAETS US WIHT A GRIPPING AND POWERFAUL VISIION OF AN APOCALPYTIC WINDOW PROPPED OPEN WIHT A BLUE KAZOO" - Taco the Wonderdog, Wit and Wasdom
--
yan@ranger.b5lr.com
 
I bow to Joe's superior knowledge, and his determination to dig through all the background material which, I admit, is available to all of us.

Common sense tells us that Michael O'Hare thought he was signing on for the full series, in whatever role JMS wanted him for. It is unlikely that an actor of his caliber would sign on for one year of a new series without options for a longer run.

Also, I have read in a number of magazine articles that O'Hare really wanted to return to the New York stage. Certainly relations between O'Hare and JMS have always remained cordial and there has never been a hint of bad feeling between them.

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
 
I guess I really should explore the Lurker's Guide a little more. All I knew of was the jms speaks section for each episode, and the 2 pages about the departures of Claudia Christian and Michael O'Hare

------------------
We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Common sense tells us that Michael O'Hare thought he was signing on for the full series, in whatever role JMS wanted him for. It is unlikely that an actor of his caliber would sign on for one year of a new series without options for a longer run.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None of the actors ever had any guarantees of "the full series".

The realities of Television preclude any assumtions of that sort.

Plus, JMS made it clear from the beginning that Babylon 5 was an "Ensemble" show.
Which means that there is NO single "indispensable" Star.
Everyone of the main characters is equal.
And, as JMS demonstrated, every one of them can Die at any time.

O'Hare, as a Very skilled professional, was aware of all these things.
That's one of the reasons he was Getting offers from Broadway shows.
His agent and the broadway producers know how the game is played on TV, too.

O'Hare left at the end of season one because every one of the actors had to renogotiate their contracts Each Season.
That fact just made it Easier for him to leave Then than halfway through the season.



------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Sinclair, although not a coward, is definitely a coward <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Superbob, you can't have it both ways.
laugh.gif


The big differences between Sinclair and Sheridan are two:

Sinclair is a Leader. The sort of person who says "Follow Me!" and his people Follow him.
They "Live for the One, they Die for the One."

Sheridan is a Manager. He Persuades people to do things they'd rather not do. Like going out and dying for him.


Also, Sinclair is suffering from an enourmous load of Survivor Guilt.
His "legacy" from the Battle of the Line.
He'd rather die himself than see anyone else die because of his orders.
So, he works extra hard to find solutions that minimize casualties because he's used up his quota of Guilt.

Sheridan doesn't have many ghosts haunting him when he tries to sleep.



------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
Just goes to show you what happens when you're in damn hurry and don't proof read what you write. Bakana accept my most humble apologies for the little freudian slip back there. Don't ask me why it came out the way it did. The point I was trying to make is that although sinclair would rather find an alternative to violence, it doesn't necassarily mean he's a coward. Sheridan is a gunslinger, high performance under pressure and is superb at how he leads. Sinclair is a differnet kind of leader.
Sorry about the confusion
shocked.gif


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Bakana accept my most humble apologies for the little freudian slip back there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was just a slip - a Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean you mother.

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"SIR ALECA GUINNES CAPTIAVAETS US WIHT A GRIPPING AND POWERFAUL VISIION OF AN APOCALPYTIC WINDOW PROPPED OPEN WIHT A BLUE KAZOO" - Taco the Wonderdog, Wit and Wasdom
--
yan@ranger.b5lr.com

[This message has been edited by Nukemall (edited December 08, 2001).]
 
I keep reading that Sinclair was this big Peace guy and Sheridan some sort of trigger happy cowboy and I think that's a bit absurd.

How do you know how Sinclair would have handled the situation Sheridan found himself in? Anyway, what was Sheridan supposed to do, make peace with the Shadows? Not join the Army of Light with Delenn because "killing is wrong?" He had little choice.

Some people don't understand that sometimes you have to take a stand, sometimes you have to fight, and yes, sometimes you have to kill people. The fact that Sheridan came up with the plan to get rid of the First Ones in Into the Fire shows us that he was always trying to think of a peaceful solution. He just never had all the information, because the Vorlons were keeping it from him.

And as far as Sheridan being a "leader" or a "manager," well, it looks like you're arguing semantics. But I'd say someone who brought dozens of rival races together to fight a common enemy and lead the IA is leader.

Frankly, I don't understand the obsession with Sinclair some people have. He was only on for one year, arguably the most boring year of the series. Sheridan was there when almost all of the really cool stuff happened, and he kicked ass. Go Sheridan!

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:

Sinclair is a Leader. The sort of person who says "Follow Me!" and his people Follow him.

Sheridan is a Manager. He Persuades people to do things they'd rather not do.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheridan wasn't a manager, he was a true leader too. In the beggining, he had to persuade people to folllow him because he was new; they didn't know and trust him yet. Whereas, Sinclair had already been there for awhile, and had gained trust.

Eventually, Sheridan did earn the kind of leadership where people follow him no matter what. Like as in Into the Fire, when all those ships followed him into the fire and even jumped in front of the Shadow missles to save him. You might argue that, yes Sheridan had to persaude all those races to fight with him, but Sinclair would have had to have done the same. You don't just ask a bunch of other worlds to forget their agenda and come and join in a suicide war.

Also, in Z'ha'dum, Sheridan asks Garibaldi to equip the WhiteStar with nukes and he does so, no questions asked. Garibaldi certainly wouldn't have done that when Sheridan first came aboard. Why? Because Sheridan had to earn trust and respect, and then he became a leader and didn't have to persuade anymore.



------------------
We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it
 
Two things that we have to remember. Sheridan has been there since Series two and as it was so rightly put"the kick ass " stuff happened with Sheridan. I'll admit that I enjoyed the first series but became an absolute addict after the second series.
Secondly, storylinewise, Sinclair fought in the first war with the shadows and changed himself into a Minbari not born of Minbari. Although I like Sheridan, sinclair also tackles a problem head on. Like I said before it all revolves around the personality!

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> And as far as Sheridan being a "leader" or a "manager," well, it looks like you're arguing semantics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, and semantics is Important. The two words have different meanings.

A Leader is someone who Inspires people to be Better than they are.
(A recurring theme in B5, Delenn, for instance)
A manager is someone who Persuades people to do what needs to be done.
Over and over, you watch Sheridan pushing people's "Hot Buttons" to get them to do what he needs done.

If you don't understand the Difference between Inspire and Persuade, I can't help.
smile.gif




<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
But I'd say someone who brought dozens of rival races together to fight a common enemy and lead the IA is leader. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That wasn't Leadership, it was Politics.
And, as Sheridan discovered during the Centauri War, it was also a lot like herding Cats.
crazy.gif
crazy.gif
shocked.gif
laugh.gif


------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Frankly, I don't understand the obsession with Sinclair some people have. He was only on for one year, arguably the most boring year of the series. Sheridan was there when almost all of the really cool stuff happened, and he kicked ass. Go Sheridan!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I admit to liking Sinclair a lot, I don't think I would have liked Sheridan even if there had never been a Sinclair. Frankly, I just didn't find Sheridan a likable character.

I barely tolerated him on my first viewing of the series - and as I started watching B5 in mid-to-late S1, I had no strong attachment to Sinclair. Only on the second viewing I realised what a nice guy Sinclair was.
laugh.gif


Sheridan was a manipulator. Nothing bad as such in that - he worked for the right aim and achieved what he set out to do - doesn't mean that everyone has to like him.

(And I'm not dissing those who do like him... that's everyone's right and I can see - when I try and look at things objectively - why many people do like him.)

I also happen to think that "all the cool stuff" could have happened just as well without Sheridan... I almost hoped he would die at Z'Ha'Dum. Now that would have made things interesting - and while I don't doubt that Ivanova, Delenn & Co. could have handled the Shadows just as well, I'd have loved to see how they would have gone about it.
laugh.gif


People are different. Not everyone likes the same things.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com
 
Well, kribu if we all liked the same things, life would be pretty damn boring wouldn't you say. Ironically enough you didn't really get into sinclair and didn't really like Sheridan.
Me, personally, I like Sheridan because he is able to direct a situation ( sounds better than manipulator wouldn't you say)
But like you say, differnt strokes for different folks!

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