in the beginning question (spoilers)

[KoshFan]

Also remember that Sinclair was not terribly popular back on Earth. I expect only Santiago's influence had kept Sinclair from getting shoved aside long ago.

I'm beginning to develop a theory that Santiago was well aware of his #2's growing ambition, and was taking steps to counter it. Hence Sheridan being something of a trap for Clark.

 

[Galahad]

What if when the Minbari were busy tossing aside top brass for B5's command, Santiago challenged them over why they were so impressed with a low ranking candidate. Maybe to convince Santiago, they had to show him one of the prophecies (containing enough credible information to positively identify Sinclair without damaging the established timeline. Heck Sinclair could have even put in a good word for Sheridan. The reason for Babylon 4's disappearance may have been revealed to , however we know that the latter was never shown outside of the Grey Council (spoilsports)!

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

My impression is that the Minbari asked for, and got, an absolute veto on the commanding officer as the price of their financial and diplomatic support. That means they did not need to explain their choices. They just had to keep rejecting people until EarthForce got close enough to the bottom of the barrel to reach Sinclair.

Without Minbari money the station could not have been built. Without their participation in the Council, the whole project would have been worthless. Also regardless of the propaganda about the "victory" of The Line, senior EA military and civilian leaders knew they'd gotten their butts kicked, and that Humanity only existed on Minbari sufferance. Not exactly a strong bargaining position, all things considered. I doubt that Santiago challenged any of their vetos.

Regards,

Joe

 

[A_M_Swallow]

That is explicitly stated more than once in the series, including in "Points of Departure". Sheridan's name was at the top of Santiago's list to replace Sinclair should that become necessary. So much for Minbari Telepaths.

Who wrote the list?
Had the list been pre-vetted by the Minbari?
How did the first list get down to the rank of commander whilst still having a captain on it? It is possible that after the admirals and colonels had been vetoed the humans asked the Minbari who was acceptable.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Wasn't aware there were any captain's left on the list - I don't think it's ever said on the show who was below sinclair on the list, but presumably a load of other vaguelly experianced commanders that earthforce would just about accept running it.
If you mean Sheridan, he says somewhere that he definately WASN'T on the original list, since earthforce knew the minbari would never accept him (mentioned in Points of departure I think?)

 

[Galahad]

That might be his belief due to his own understanding of the political situation between Earth and Minbar with regards to himself, rather than a direct reference to the list.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

OK, fair call, he probabaly hasn't seen the list; he probably has a point though?

Am now starting to wonder how many other earthforce high rankers who appeared in B5 got passed over 'till sinclair was picked; If they've gone all the way though admiral to Commander, that's a LOT of officers, even accepting the list only included ones who where available.

 

[hypatia]

Was the B5 Commander's position considered that much of a promotion really? Back before B5 became the center of everything, so to speak?

Perhaps not everyone was "passed over" but some "respectfully declined". Especially those who proved to be sympathetic to the anti-alien attitude that was so apparent later.

 

[KoshFan]

Good point, Hypatia, but I think those people were the ones who would have removed themselves from the list before it was sent to the Minbari. Garibaldi says somewhere in S1 that lots of the top dogs in EarthForce wanted the job. Sinclair got it.

Sheridan was not on the original list. He was number one on a second list, compiled without Minbari consultation or vetoes, and with *vastly* stricter criteria.

But I have to say he was the perfect one for the job. An expert at fighting from a position of weakness, a man with a nose for conspiracies, a true patriot willing to fight the government to save the nation, a leader who would risk his life for his subordinates and his people -- if all these things were common knowledge (which they weren't) and the Starkiller incident hadn't happened (but it had) and if Sinclair hadn't been the one the Minbari wanted (which he was) he might very well have been commander of B5 right from the beginning.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Who wrote the list?

Santiago. That's why it's called "Santiago's list". /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Had the list been pre-vetted by the Minbari?

All indications are "No" The agreement with the Minbari did not give them approval over the station's commander in perpetuity. They got to pick the guy who was going to get the whole effort on its feet and working.

How did the first list get down to the rank of commander whilst still having a captain on it?

1) "Starkiller" Sheridan wasn't on the first list. Santiago was no dummy.

2) Everyone is making the mistake of assuming that Santiago went down the entire roster of EarthForce officers, starting with the Generals and working his way down, and that every one of them was rejected until he hit Sinclair. The indications in the show are otherwise.

Garibaldi tells Sincair that he must be aware that he wasn't the first person considered for command of B5 because "in spite of all the problems" it is still a "plum assignment". It is undoubtedly a high-profile job, but it is also a tricky one. Commanding B5 could make a career, but it could also kill it. So not everybody wanted the assignment. Garibaldi's conversation with Sinclair also strongly indicates that people applied and lobbied for the job. Undoubtedly most EarthForce officers did not apply for the job. (Including John Sheridan, who was happy commanding a starship and took command of B5 only under direct orders.)

So the original list would have consisted of a fairly small number of officers who were interested in a tour of diplomatic duty that wasn't nearly as sure a path to promotion as other assignments in the rebuilding, post-war force. This list would have been further whittled down by Santiago and his advisors, as officers with poor alien-relations histories or other problems would have been eliminated. Then Santiago would have started sending names to the Minbari, and not necessarily in order of seniority. A captain with an "A+" record in First Contact situations may have been placed ahead of an Admiral or General with a less-than-spotless record. A Major General who was a good administrator may have been preferred over a Lt. General with a great combat record but poor management skills.

The biggest surprise (and frankly the biggest flaw) in the Sinclair situation was that EarthForce didn't promote him when they gave him the job - which was really at least a captain's billet. I think JMS didn't do this precisely to underscore the fact that Sinclair's career was somewhat stalled. (He was a little old to be a commander, especially in a force whose ranks of experienced officers had been so thinned by a recent war, and which had been rebuilding ever since.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[Elric]

That is explicitly stated more than once in the series, including in "Points of Departure". Sheridan's name was at the top of Santiago's list to replace Sinclair should that become necessary.

Well that completly blows my theory /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I must have coughed or something when that was mentioned in the show /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

However, this is still an unusual choice since it would obviously 'upset' the Minbari. And why didn't the they reject Sheridan? Hmmm, interesting...

 

[FlipperPA]

I was quite amused when (in season 1), Franklin was doing an examination on Delenn and the two discussed what each other was doing during the time of the war. Franklin told the truth (as we saw in the movie) but Delenn basically acted like she had no part at all in the war, heh. I found that amusing after seeing "In the Beginning" since they'd be in the exact same room during a major point of the war.

I believe Delenn tells Franklin, "A story for another time." Knowing JMS's style, this was a big hint and very telling that she had something BIG to do with the war.

As for Sheridan's appointment, I always had the feeling that Hague was working fast and furious ("I know this is breaking the chain of command, but I wanted you to hear it from me.") to get Santiago's wishes in place before Clarke ran rampant over everything. Once Sheridan is in place, it would be much harder for Clarke to protest, even if he cared to, so Hague was doing what he could to get good, honest patriots into place because he knew what was coming.

-Tim

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

And why didn't the they reject Sheridan?

See above. I don't think they had veto power over every B5 commander, just the first one. Or the fact that Sinclair was being displaced at the Minbari's request led Earth to say, "OK, but only if we pick his replacement." Then the Minbari would just have to live with the decision.

Santiago may well have chosen Sheridan because of his willingness to go on the peace mission during the war - something that would be known to the highest levels of Earth's military and political leadership (but likely not known to the vice-president) and to the Grey Council. Sheridan's subsequent stellar record in dealing with the League worlds would also recommend him for the job. While the majority of Minbari, especially among the warrior caste, would be outraged by the appointment, the Council might have been more willing to go along with the idea, knowing what they did.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Jomar]

Having finally acquired a DVD player, I spent the past two evenings watching The Gathering and In The Beginning.
It's two or three years since I last watched these two movies and I particularly watched the scene where Delenn
sees Sheridan and he shouts 'Istle'za", or something like that. She definitely could see him, but her face was so
shrouded by her hood that he couldn't possibly recognize her when he met her again. G'Kar and Franklin were
partially concealed by the Minbari but Sheridan was front and center and she would have known that he was the
one who destroyed the Black Star.

In The Gathering, I have always thought it odd that Sinclair only had the rank of Commander when he was dealing
with Ambassadors on a daily basis. It could only be because Earth didn't think the post important enough to fight
over when the Minbari signalled they wanted Sinclair. He should probably have held a higher rank than Captain to
deal with these dignitaries.

 

[Galahad]

Mnd you, the reason the Minbari wanted Sinclair as Commander was simply so that he would be in the right place and the right time for them to study him. His departure would seem to indicate that the Minbari had completed their study and decided to take the next step along the road (Religious caste members anyway). Maybe that was how the Warrior caste managed to swing the majority of the Grey Council, in exchange for a simple gesture to the humans (that the 3 from the Religious Caste regarded as essential to prophecy), one position from among the council would have to be sacrificed. The Religious caste would have probably only made this concession if it were for something important to them. The Warrior Caste would only concede to an idea they thought lunacy, if they got something credible out of it.

 

[KoshFan]

As for Sheridan's appointment, I always had the feeling that Hague was working fast and furious ("I know this is breaking the chain of command, but I wanted you to hear it from me.") to get Santiago's wishes in place before Clarke ran rampant over everything. Once Sheridan is in place, it would be much harder for Clarke to protest, even if he cared to, so Hague was doing what he could to get good, honest patriots into place because he knew what was coming.

Very good point, Flipper, a very good point indeed. My own proto-theory is that the conspiracy that we see at work in Season Two was really founded by Santiago against his uppity but well-backed VP, and that after Santiago's death Hague took over running the conspiracy.

 

[Kaleb]

I always got the impression that santiago was whiter than white.

 

[HeinleinFan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't one of the plotlines of the S1 ep. *Eyes* deal with who was or was not on this *list*? I seem to recall that the special intelligence officer (who's name escapes me at the moment - ben Zayne?) was feeling *left out* of the list and was taking his pound of flesh from Sinclair's hide.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

There were 2 lists - Initial and Season 2.

Colonel Ari Ben Zayn from Eyes was on the Initial List but was veoted by the Minbari.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

I always got the impression that santiago was whiter than white.

???? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

"Eyes" was the episode with Col. Ben-Zayn, and that's the one where Garibaldi reveals that Sinclair was not exactly EarthForce's first choice for the command. But although Garibaldi makes a passing reference to "admirals and generals" lining up for the post, Ben-Zayn himself is the only one named, and neither the total number of candidates nor Sinclair's position on the list is mentioned.

Regards,

Joe