Is Crusade dead?

PsionTen · Dec 11, 2001

I was interested in the post (maybe not in the way you might have hoped) but the question was genuine. I don't know what "new people" you're talking about, since you can't even see "Crusade" anymore....unless sci-fi is currently re-airing it. Let's face it, most of those who are into Crusade got into it when it aired on TNT oh so many years ago ... if there has been some recent fans to the show, then I take back my original question.

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited December 11, 2001).]

Joseph DeMartino · Dec 11, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Regardless of what we in the B5 fan community think, to some of those outside it will always carry the whiff of a failed TV show.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outside of the B5 fan community there aren't a lot of people who have even heard of Crusade, so it isn't like it has this huge reputation one way or the other. Within the TV biz it may have some taint of "damaged goods", but Sci-Fi is unlikely to be affected by that. They wanted the show in 1999, and they had a pretty good idea of what was going on with it. They're also airing the reruns now, "failed show" or not.

(Sci-Fi could easily have passed on the Crusade reruns entirely. I doubt that they were that desparate to fill 13 hours of airtime last spring. They bought it because they were curious to see how it did on "their air." So there must have been at least some thought that they might want to do something with the show, at some point down the line. Else, why bother?)

If Rangers becomes a hit, Sci-Fi could plausibly present a revived version of Crusade (which would probably be retitled because of post-9/11 concerns anyway) as a sequel to it, and avoid the whole "damaged goods" question. That may very well be one of the reasons that Sci-Fi opted for a brand new B5 universe project rather than Crusade when discussing options with WB, Straczynski and Netter a year ago.

Should Rangers become a hit there is at least an even money chance that Sci-Fi would consider another series based on B5. They're looking for a franchise to "brand" the network with, and tried very had to get the various Trek reruns for exactly that purpose. B5 probably lends itself more the the idea of a spin-off than Farscape does.

In Crusade they have a ready-made, compelling story that could easily tie-in to things established in Rangers and would allow for the kind of ratings-boosting cross-overs between the shows that networks love. It is a least something that they're likely to think about if Rangers goes to series and starts attracting Farscape-sized ratings. If not, of course, they won't.

So, no, Crusade isn't dead yet. Not as far as JMS is concerned, and possibly not as far as Sci-Fi is concerned. Whether it has any chance of life will depend on what happens with Rangers, and we won't know that for a year to eighteen months.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

Technomage Roanna · Dec 11, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:
Let's face it, most of those who are into Crusade got into it when it aired on TNT oh so many years ago ... if there has been some recent fans to the show, then I take back my original question.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I recall hearing people talk about catching it for the first time.

On fan email lists for several of the actors, we often pick up one or two new members after each showing.

So, yes, there are new people coming in. And I said "new to the board" not just new to Crusade. Even if someone's a viewer from the TNT run, if they're new here it could still be a question of interest to them.

And my interest in your interest is pretty minimal. I just don't want new people to feel like they can't bring up a topic just because long time posters might have already talked about it.

Ro

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A ship in a port is safe, but that's not what ships are for.

Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper

KoshN · Dec 11, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
(Sci-Fi could easily have passed on the Crusade reruns entirely. I doubt that they were that desparate to fill 13 hours of airtime last spring. They bought it because they were curious to see how it did on "their air." So there must have been at least some thought that they might want to do something with the show, at some point down the line. Else, why bother?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To keep B5 fans attracted to their channel.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
...(which would probably be retitled because of post-9/11 concerns anyway)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Argh! This just sucks. I'm going to find Osama Bin Laden and hit him with a baseball bat that has the Crusade logo burned into it.

How can one wacko nut-job so thoroughly screw with so many tenuously related things?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
... as a sequel to it, and avoid the whole "damaged goods" question. That may very well be one of the reasons that Sci-Fi opted for a brand new B5 universe project rather than Crusade when discussing options with WB, Straczynski and Netter a year ago.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, maybe some good can come out of a retitling.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

EntilSedai · Dec 11, 2001

Well, if Crusade is retitled, which may not occur due to the A)time between the attacks and the rebirth of the series and B)the lack of question about WHAT Crusade means in the context of the show(as in the 'project' to SAVE THE EARTH; what name is better for a fight against a deadly plague/race of alien beings), what should it be retitled to?

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hypatia · Dec 11, 2001

"The-campaign-which-can't-be
called-a-crusade-becaue-we-are
being-politically-correct."

Hmmm, that's a bit long to put on a
T-shirt or bumpersticker.

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(Spirit): “If it is too hard a lesson for you to learn, then learn this lesson:”
[Shows emaciated children at his feet.] (Ebenezer): “Are these yours?” (Spirit): “They are Man’s. They cling to me for protection from their fetters. This boy is ignorance, this girl is want. Beware them both, but most of all, beware this boy.” (Ebenezer): “Have they no refuge, no resource?” (Spirit): “Are there no prisons, are there no workhouses?”

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

Joseph DeMartino · Dec 11, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>How can one wacko nut-job so thoroughly screw with so many tenuously related things?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is hardly one wacko nutjob who has a problem with that word. We're largely unconcerned because it has passed into the general language with a meaning quite divorced from any particular event.

In the Muslim world that word has only one meaning, and it isn't a good one. Recent events have just made us aware of it, is all. This is hardly a unique phenomenon. There are Southerners in this country who still refer to "The War of Northern Agression", people in the former Yugoslavia carrying out vendettas from 1,000 years ago, and Scots who, from the way they talk, were personally present at Stirling Bridge.

Al Sharpton wants to take money from people who never owned slaves (and whose forebearers didn't come to this country until after slavery was abolished) and give it to people who never were slaves in "reparation" for injuries suffered by other people they may or may not have been related to.

But if "Crusade" is such a hot-button word for some people, I don't have a huge problem dropping it from the national lexicon. As long as they agree to drop "jihad" in its military (as opposed to spiritual) sense, in return.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

EntilSedai · Dec 11, 2001

I think this politically correct movement has gone too far. When you have to use different language(usually less loaded with meaning) to talk about things, its like having to talk with 'goodfacts' and not 'realfacts.'

<<rant:
In canada, I have heard it proposed that to reduce welfare dependancy among Native Canadians(formerly Aboriginals(formerly Indians)), the department of Indian and Northern affairs should be dismantled and the resultant savings be given in a 28000 dollar cheque every year to these Status natives. More free money=less welfare dependancy(I mean welfare dependancy as using welfare as an income(not working due to welfare))
From biology, has it not been discovered that the more harshly something is treated over time, the stronger it becomes.
End rant>>
I see no reason to change the name, other than to avoid legal/image issues

CSR

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crazybillyo · Dec 11, 2001

They can't rename it. If they did, it would mean the terrorists have won.

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Sheridan: Are you trying to cheer me up?
Ivanova: No sir, wouldn't dream of it.
Sheridan: Good, I hate being cheered up. It's depressing.
Ivanova: So in that case we're all going to die horrible, painful, lingering deaths.
Sheridan: Thank you, I feel so much better now.

**DONOTDELETE** · Dec 12, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by whitestar90:
Its just sleeping waiting for the right moment to awaken....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Once and Future Captain?

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Darkwing
Let's..get..dangerous

Scorpius · Dec 12, 2001

In my opinion, it should pick right where it left off, right with the same people, same name everything. I mean, changing things just because of 9-11. Personally I don't see the point.

The new Star Trek movie was almost going to be rewritten because of a terrorist attack at the beginning of the movie.

Okay, I feel for those who were effected by 9-11, I was too. But I don't believe deleting any cool shows, or cool parts of shows to change those who were effected is right. I mean, God forbid, all you have to do is not watch or change the channel!

Disclaimer: This means no offence to anyone on this board, or anyone in name. This is my opinion.

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"My name is Scorpius."

GKarsEye · Dec 12, 2001

Wait a minute, you mean the Muslim world are offended by the word Crusade? Oh, what a shame. Ya know, we should really make a special effort not to offend them.

That is, of course, right before we drop a Daisy-Cutter on their asses.

Excuse me, aren't we at war? To hell with them. So they're offended. You know what offends me? Harboring and supporting international terrorist networks, so let's try to put some perspective on this, people.

The Crusades happened 700 years ago. My knowledge of biology is admittedly lacking, but I believe it's impossible that there could be anyone alive who survived the Crusades.

It's exactly like US blacks who want reperations for slavery or Jews who still bitch about the Pharoah's opression of the Israelites. People use history as an excuse to act like jerks.

To all Muslims worried about the word Crusade: GET OVER IT!

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

PsionTen · Dec 12, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I recall hearing people talk about catching it for the first time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Though you'll never catch me saying it again, I agree with Joe on this. If you aren't already deeply imbedded into the B5 mythos, then chances are you don't even know what "Crusade" is ... or was. But I'm not going to argue the point ... if you believe that "Crusade" is picking up "new" fans than so be it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And my interest in your interest is pretty minimal. I just don't want new people to feel like they can't bring up a topic just because long time posters might have already talked about it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A few quick points: (1) That very issue was already addressed earlier in the thread; and (2) I never said anything about new people not being able to raise questions... I rarely visit this place, I saw the post, and I honestly didn't know that it was still an issue. With all of the Ranger excitement I, just assumed that the show (if it becomes a series) would take over the B5 franchise.

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

Joseph DeMartino · Dec 12, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you aren't already deeply imbedded into the B5 mythos, then chances are you don't even know what "Crusade" is ... or was. But I'm not going to argue the point ... if you believe that "Crusade" is picking up "new" fans than so be it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course the show is picking up new (no need for quotation marks) fans. The cable landscape has changed since 1999. Lots of folks who couldn't get TNT back then can get Sci-Fi now. Because B5 has been running early in the evenings for over a year now, lots of new fans have discovered that show and are now "deeply imbedded into the B5 mythos." So they watched Crusade the two times Sci-Fi has already run it, and more will likely watch it when they run it again in January.

Since you haven't been around here, I'm sure you've missed the quotations from JMS posts where he has said that a Rangers series doesn't mean that he's given up on Crusade by any means. On the contrary, he expects that Sci-Fi will revisit the notion of reviving Crusade if a Rangers series becomes a hit. If Rangers merely does well, without becoming a break-out show for Sci-Fi, he plans to deal with some of the Crusade plot elements in the new show.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Excuse me, aren't we at war?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With international terrorism, yes. With Islam (as our government has been at pains to make clear), no. Some of our allies in this war are Muslim countries, and plenty of American citizens (including some of the victims of 9/11) are Muslims. If the word has such negative conotations to them, I really don't have a big problem with dropping it from polite discourse.

There is a good chance that the next target of the war on terror will be some non-Muslim group (like the Columbian narco-terrorists) just to make the limits and goals of the war clear to everyone. (Then we'll go after Somalia, Sudan and settle Saddam's hash once and for all.

)

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

GKarsEye · Dec 12, 2001

Yeah, but the people that created this absurd thing about the word "Crusade" are the same people that we're at war with.

When Pres. Bush said that we were on a "Crusade" against terrorism, Osama, Omar and their cronies jumped on TV and said, "Aha, look, the Christian infidels starting a war against inoocent Muslims! He said it himself!" And then a few idiots said, "Well, they do have point, since 700 years ago, blah blah blah."

No, I'm sorry, but they don't have a point.

I've gotten lectured here before about how words change meanings, language is fluid, etc. Ok, fine, does that not then apply here? Crusade no longer means a bunch of Christians on horses with crosses on their shields plowing through Palestine. It refers to a crucial mission, possibly even "sacred," that requires sacrifice and hardship to achieve.

Bush used it to play up the righteousness of the war on terror. JMS used it to give an air of foreboding to his show about a ship trying to find a way to save Earth. What's the problem?

If some people don't get it, too bad. And, as Joe said, the idea that they have a problem with Crusade and then insist on using the term "jihad" is so hypocritical, it's funny (OK, I added the part about the hypocracy, Joe didn't say that, but you know what I mean).

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

PsionTen · Dec 12, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If some people don't get it, too bad. And, as Joe said, the idea that they have a problem with Crusade and then insist on using the term "jihad" is so hypocritical, it's funny (OK, I added the part about the hypocracy, Joe didn't say that, but you know what I mean).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen. BTW, don't let Bush's speeches fool you. From what I've heard, its very likely that Bush intentionally used the word "Crusade" precisely because he knew that it would rile up certain folks. Heck, the word "slave" offends me but its still in the English Language (not to mention the name of Boba Fett's ship) A confederate flag hangs above my state capital right now, but people would rather change the name of a tv show because someone from a thousand miles away might be angry about something that occurred over 7 centuries ago?

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

KoshN · Dec 12, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by EntilSedai:
I think this politically correct movement has gone too far. When you have to use different language(usually less loaded with meaning) to talk about things, its like having to talk with 'goodfacts' and not 'realfacts.'

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed! It's been taken to such an extreme, that it turns my stomach.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US). http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited December 12, 2001).]

EntilSedai · Dec 12, 2001

Another thing with this PC stuff, wasnt it a centauri minister(of intelligence) that said:
"If you can not say what you mean you can not mean what you say?"
I agree that using derogatory statements is not correct(the 'N' word, for example), but when you shouldnt say certain words because they may offend someone 'a 1000 miles away from 700 years ago' that is too far.

Kepp Crusade

CSR

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EntilSedai · Dec 17, 2001

Only one thing to say:

To Delenn, was Sheriden gone after SiL? No, he was still in her heart.

Crusade will not die until it is forgotten by everyone. As long as there are people who discuss the show, like the show, watch the show, et cetera Crusade will never die.
The body may be resting but the spirit lives on.

CSR

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