It was, perhaps, inevitable...

[darth_librarian]

Many of the people who have posted in this thread need to get laid more or SOMETHING if the two here getting IT least can see where the value of such a topic lies. Or perhaps there are too many ZEALOT B5 fans here to play with such a comparison without getting nitpicky and aggresive about the thing.

Not sure I understand your sentence, but i'm also getting plenty. Thanks for the concern though. Just cause we are not so hot on your show, there's no need to bring our libios into doubt!

Just felt the need to clarify that after talking about Hookers for a long time...

 

[KoshFan]

My dad looked at the western themes of Firefly and said, "Well, Star Wars was a western. This show's just more obvious about it." And while Star Wars (we're talking about the original here) did manage to hide it a bit and dropped a few pseudo-samurai in for variety, it was a western. And the number of tips of the hat that Firefly makes to Star Wars makes it clear that Joss Whedon understood this.

Yeah, Joss's concepts are usually a little weird. We have a cheerleader who turns into a superhero, a vampire who's at turns a PI, a warrior, and the head of a powerful law firm, and a show that is very very clearly "Wagon Train" in space (much more so than Trek:TOS ever was). I refused to even consider watching Buffy for a long time because the concept was so silly. When I was finally dragged into watching it, and got past the sillyness of it all, I fell in love with the show. It's almost as if Joss develops ridiculous concepts on purpose, to make it more of a challenge for him.

 

[Quagmire]

The western theme is an affectation in my eyes. It doesn't add anything and there's no reason given for it, it just seems like an idea people came up with while sittin' 'round the bong.

Buffy used monsters as metaphors for real problems people/teenagers had to deal with in real life. The premise was essential to the stories not just something thrown in to be different.

And as others said bringing up sex in this context is foolish. We simply don't like your show as much as you do. Oh and may I remind you that reading, let alone posting on a B5 board makes you a nerd in one way or another, no exceptions.

 

[2aMageing]

Many of the people who have posted in this thread need to get laid more or SOMETHING if the two here getting IT least can see where the value of such a topic lies. Or perhaps there are too many ZEALOT B5 fans here to play with such a comparison without getting nitpicky and aggresive about the thing.

Not sure I understand your sentence, but i'm also getting plenty. Thanks for the concern though. Just cause we are not so hot on your show, there's no need to bring our libios into doubt!

Just felt the need to clarify that after talking about Hookers for a long time...

Let me clarify the fact that this comment was ment with more whimsy than factual descroption. Obviously the statement IDs KoshFan and myself as not getting much in an effort to lighten up the tone of the post. If people took it as a serious recommendation, then I appologize to those who felt I was labeling them as getting laid more than us, but less than they ought to be to be cool or something.

And it REALLY is not MY show. It is not KoshFan's show. It is a show with a following, even if the following is not strongly present on this board. I was simply hoping the thread could inspire better conversation and allow people to compare and contrast the two good shows instead of just becoming a poll for those who do or do not like FIrefly.

 

[2aMageing]

Personally, I am surprised that fans of Sci Fi find the mix of space and cowboy as hard to accept as many have.

Probably not "hard to accept" as you put it, more that it just doesn't work for them. Personally I hate Westerns. Full stop. The only one I have ever seen that has even mildly entertained me was Blazing Saddles, and that is a spoof.

That's a good point. I forgot about the aspect that many folks, some of my close friends included, just don't enjoy western themed material. I guess that would eliminate a certain percentage of a potential audience right out of the gate.

I kinda gotta believe he used the western theme with a purpose. After having seen a number of series use such a mix, I am convinced they aer using it as a way presetting a kind of social standard for the show. The way Sheridan and Ivanova's membership in Earth Aliance automatically gave them a minimum label of being mindful of duty and honor, I think the western theme is likely ment to give a feel to the entire show as a universe of law, outlaw, and sort of a working outside of the bounds or even living in a world without well defined bounds, as outer space civilizations very possibly might end up as. The anime Outlaw Star used the theme to set up a triangle of Law, Pirates, and Outlaws, and used a society divided as such as the base for telling its story.

I really can't know for sure what Joss intended the western theme to accomplish, but I gotta believe he is too good a writer to not follow the cardinal rule of drama, nothing should be added that does not serve a predetermined purpose.

It's a pity we never got to see the whole package to judge how worthwhile the western theme might have been.

 

[KoshFan]

It's been pointed out that many of the villains in Firefly are those with too much attempting to squeeze out a little more from those with too little -- and that fits the Western theme, or at least how I understand the West. Also the whole animal-transport thing that distracts so many people fits: if you can't afford to buy a speeder but you've got plenty of grass, then horses make sense. Think about it. In the US and Europe, cars and trucks are used, but in Africa or Asia you're still going to find a lot of animal transport used. It's all haves vs. have-nots.

And frankly a Western theme is just as likely a look for the future as the shoulder pads of the 1950s or the tunics and miniskirts of Trek's TOS.

 

[Recoil]

And frankly a Western theme is just as likely a look for the future as the shoulder pads of the 1950s or the tunics and miniskirts of Trek's TOS.

Yea, except that was the 60s, and still in the early ages of television for the most part. I don't contribute that to Roddenberry's "vision" more along the lines of what they could find that was cheap...

 

[GKarsEye]

It's been pointed out that many of the villains in Firefly are those with too much attempting to squeeze out a little more from those with too little -- and that fits the Western theme, or at least how I understand the West.

Well certainly that happened but that happens everywhere. The one unifying "theme" of most Western stories is that of frontierism. The United States was unique in that it had acquired all this land and now it was up to rugged individualists to go tame it. Thus for many the frontier was a symbol of freedom, a place to make or break it on your own, with no one else to blame or credit.

Though I agree with the Doc that the West style of Firefly is an affectation, if I had to pick a more "serious" reason for it, I would guess that the imagery of the frontier West matches with Reynolds' desire for personal liberty. Here's a guy who just wants to make a living and be left alone. He doesn't want to be owned and doesn't want to own anyone.

 

[2aMageing]

Nice description, GKE. Amusingly enough, you just also described the "Outlaw" personality from the Outlaw Star anime as well as the main character's personality. The parallels keep impressing me. Not that anyone here is likely to be watching a firefly like japanese anime anytime soon, but the amican live action working so heavily in the realm of a japanese anime really impresses me.

 

[Vonbloodbath]

There's also the whole civil war angle; Whedon very specifically modelled the post-civil war theme after the US Civil War. Sort of the Outlaw Josey Wales in Space.

VB

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Well certainly that happened but that happens everywhere. The one unifying "theme" of most Western stories is that of frontierism. The United States was unique in that it had acquired all this land and now it was up to rugged individualists to go tame it. Thus for many the frontier was a symbol of freedom, a place to make or break it on your own, with no one else to blame or credit.

Though I agree with the Doc that the West style of Firefly is an affectation, if I had to pick a more "serious" reason for it, I would guess that the imagery of the frontier West matches with Reynolds' desire for personal liberty. Here's a guy who just wants to make a living and be left alone. He doesn't want to be owned and doesn't want to own anyone.

Well, I can understand that. I am no particular fan of westerns, but I don't hate them. There are several westerns which I would call excellent films, as discussed in another thread. So, I don't dislike Firefly just because of western allusions. I loved Space Truckers, a mixed genre film that is just good, campy, fun.

I think that if we do begin to settle space, there will be many similarities to settling the American west. Maybe too many, if we try to conquer new worlds, and destroy their natural enviroments. But, when we do this, it will be with the current technology, it won't be with oxen and six-shooters. Things will be spartan, but neo-spartan, not paleo-spartan. Also the settlers will either have to pay their own way into space, or get gov or private funding. Either way, you won't see the poor and the homeless going out there, although they may become that way once they get there.

A friend, fellow B5 fan, has the Firefly DVDs. I am planning on watching the real pilot, which I haven't seen. I watched about 4-6 eps, then quit, since it didn't do much for me. I may go see Serenity. But I doubt that I will ever think that Firefly is in the same league with B5.

 

[GKarsEye]

There's also the whole civil war angle; Whedon very specifically modelled the post-civil war theme after the US Civil War. Sort of the Outlaw Josey Wales in Space.

VB

Interesting. That would make Reynolds and Zoe analogously the South.

 

[KoshFan]

Pretty much. Only no slavery. The Alliance, with its higher tech base, makes a pretty good analogy of what the North was (minus Lincoln). In "The Train Job" Mal even say "I'm thinkin' we'll rise again."