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IT'S DEAD, JIM?
- Thread starter B5_Obsessed
- Start date
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
Make it without achieving some level of agreement?
I don't think so.
It would be unlikely to yield anything decent.
They would only burn fingers (thus excluding a future attempt).
Make it without achieving some level of agreement?
I don't think so.
It would be unlikely to yield anything decent.
They would only burn fingers (thus excluding a future attempt).
hypatia
Regular
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
Well put, Jan.
We are so into immediate gratification anymore. I'd rather wait for supreme gratification.
It does lift my spirits that JMS seems to have faith that a B5 theatrical movie is bound to happen eventually. My only question from reading his words is: can he make a B5 film as cheaply as they could make a Brady Bunch film?
I've always assumed that was one of the details holding back a B5 film in the first place. Costs similar to Trek movies, but without the same confidence that it could make the money back again. (Well, until Nemesis when I think the guaranteed profit margin from the Trek films fell flat, didn't it?)
Well put, Jan.
We are so into immediate gratification anymore. I'd rather wait for supreme gratification.
It does lift my spirits that JMS seems to have faith that a B5 theatrical movie is bound to happen eventually. My only question from reading his words is: can he make a B5 film as cheaply as they could make a Brady Bunch film?
I've always assumed that was one of the details holding back a B5 film in the first place. Costs similar to Trek movies, but without the same confidence that it could make the money back again. (Well, until Nemesis when I think the guaranteed profit margin from the Trek films fell flat, didn't it?)
Shaal Mayan
Regular
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
From his post it sounds like money was the problem and it is good to know Joe seems to have the rights.So I can assume JMS could take the B5 movie project around to anyone who might be interested and make it without WB's approval ?
From his post it sounds like money was the problem and it is good to know Joe seems to have the rights.So I can assume JMS could take the B5 movie project around to anyone who might be interested and make it without WB's approval ?
wolfranger
Regular
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
I agree whole heartly. JMS has always stood for what he believed in for Babylon 5 and I have no problem with that. To me it means that when a movie does get done, it will probably be what I expect from the B5 universe.and not a cheap copy that should have been named something else.
I agree whole heartly. JMS has always stood for what he believed in for Babylon 5 and I have no problem with that. To me it means that when a movie does get done, it will probably be what I expect from the B5 universe.and not a cheap copy that should have been named something else.
Recoil
Regular
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
One thing that is of note....it seems that the whole re-casting actor thing was never even an issue, not even from the start. If he had the rights, and they were never looking at WB it looked like it was always going to have the usual actors for the show. Interesting that that wasn't the real problem behind the movie (at least from what it seems in that post)
One thing that is of note....it seems that the whole re-casting actor thing was never even an issue, not even from the start. If he had the rights, and they were never looking at WB it looked like it was always going to have the usual actors for the show. Interesting that that wasn't the real problem behind the movie (at least from what it seems in that post)
Jan
Regular
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
I disagree completely. See my post in the 'Bad News' thread. If the company/individuals who optioned the movie were unable to put the deal together on their own, it's likely that there was a lot of pressure to go with WB for backing, especially as time got short on the option expiring.
Jan
I disagree completely. See my post in the 'Bad News' thread. If the company/individuals who optioned the movie were unable to put the deal together on their own, it's likely that there was a lot of pressure to go with WB for backing, especially as time got short on the option expiring.
Jan
AnlaShokGrey
Regular
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
I think "Evita" was optioned for about fifteen years before the movie got made. The list of actresses attached to it - those who purchased the option over the years - is as long as your arm! Barbra Streisand was attached at one point, Faye Dunaway was, etc. These things can 'percolate' for years.
Amy
I think "Evita" was optioned for about fifteen years before the movie got made. The list of actresses attached to it - those who purchased the option over the years - is as long as your arm! Barbra Streisand was attached at one point, Faye Dunaway was, etc. These things can 'percolate' for years.
Amy
AnlaShokGrey
Regular
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
It's worth mentioning here that Moyra made a lot of noise while the letter-writing campaign was going on about how, according to _her_ sources (i.e. Mira), the cast had never been contacted, no one had gotten so much as a phone call from JMS, and that if you _were_ going to use the cast in the film, wouldn't you at least give them a ring and see if they were interested? So, if Mira knows about it _now_, at this late date...and Moyra swore up and down and sideways that she _didn't_ know about it before... I dunno, doesn't that seem to imply that maybe, possibly, perhaps there WERE casting problems, and that the original gang wasn't actually contacted until the eleventh hour?
If anything, I think that Moyra's posts about Mira's _recent_ revelations do nothing but confirm that the folks behind the campaign knew whereof they spoke.
Amy
It's worth mentioning here that Moyra made a lot of noise while the letter-writing campaign was going on about how, according to _her_ sources (i.e. Mira), the cast had never been contacted, no one had gotten so much as a phone call from JMS, and that if you _were_ going to use the cast in the film, wouldn't you at least give them a ring and see if they were interested? So, if Mira knows about it _now_, at this late date...and Moyra swore up and down and sideways that she _didn't_ know about it before... I dunno, doesn't that seem to imply that maybe, possibly, perhaps there WERE casting problems, and that the original gang wasn't actually contacted until the eleventh hour?
If anything, I think that Moyra's posts about Mira's _recent_ revelations do nothing but confirm that the folks behind the campaign knew whereof they spoke.
Amy
A_M_Swallow
Regular
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
Some first time film producers decided to make a science fiction movie. Wisely they chose an existing franchise and hired its creator as their scriptwriter. Unwisely they decided to make a blockbuster. First timers do not have the track record to get that much money from a studio and do not know how to raise it from anyone else.
Some first time film producers decided to make a science fiction movie. Wisely they chose an existing franchise and hired its creator as their scriptwriter. Unwisely they decided to make a blockbuster. First timers do not have the track record to get that much money from a studio and do not know how to raise it from anyone else.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
Hope springs eternal.
Emm. Has somene else hired the sound stages during April at Elstree yet?
Alternatively JMS could still be under contract.
Hope springs eternal.
Emm. Has somene else hired the sound stages during April at Elstree yet?
Alternatively JMS could still be under contract.
Capt. Neville
Regular
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
Call me hopeful, but can anybody come up with reasons *why* JMS would still be unable to comment about the writing campaign?
Thoughts:
- Pessimism: People are still upset that their replace-actors-with-big-name-stars idea was shot down, and he doesn't want to ruffle feathers
- Optimism: The writing campaign resulted in some other movement along other lines that JMS cannot talk about yet because talks are still ongoing
Wasn't there hints of another B5 project in parallel w/ the movie? Maybe thanks to the writing campaign *that* project is continuing forward?
--mcn
Call me hopeful, but can anybody come up with reasons *why* JMS would still be unable to comment about the writing campaign?
Thoughts:
- Pessimism: People are still upset that their replace-actors-with-big-name-stars idea was shot down, and he doesn't want to ruffle feathers
- Optimism: The writing campaign resulted in some other movement along other lines that JMS cannot talk about yet because talks are still ongoing
Wasn't there hints of another B5 project in parallel w/ the movie? Maybe thanks to the writing campaign *that* project is continuing forward?
--mcn
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
That's funny. It seems to me that he did comment. The letter writing campaign was not "less than pointless" because the assumption that Warner Bros. had nothing at all to do with the project is false, and therefore the conclusion that the fan effort was pointless was also false.
It seems quite plausible to me that at some point in the complex process of geting funding (which often turns on proving you've got distribution or some other thinjg already lined up) the would-be producers of TMoS wen to WB for co-financing or a distribution deal and were given WB's standard "We big studio, we only use big actors" spiel and at that point tried to get big names. When WB passed along the information about all the damned letters they were getting asking for the original cast, the producers finally decided to try to get them. Which would explain why Mira (according to Moyra) was never in the loop on the film the whole time leading up to it, but was suddenly in a position to declare it dead last week. She was finally approached and couldn't agree to terms with the producers. (My guess is that the amounts they could offer the actors absent certain funding or a distribution deal with Warner Bros. wasn't enough to tempt any of them or to inspire much confidence in the film. And if all they could offer in lieu of up-front payments were "profit participation" deals - well, we all know from JMS how well those things usually work out.) The fact that Jerry Doyle and Stephen Furst discussed how they personally had only been contacted about possible cameo roles in a film where their parts would be recast on Doyle's radio show as recently as last month also supports what we've been saying all along.
I believe the letter-writing campaign may have had the effect of convincing the producers that they'd be better off with the original cast, but given that they had been screwing around trying to avoid that for so many months while still paying for office space, options and deposits on production space meant that by the time they did the right thing it was too late. There either wasn't the time or wasn't the money to do the thing right, and JMS finally chose not to renew the option rather than let this collection of well-meaning wannabes go further with the project. I respect his decision. And I stand by our actions and our accounts of what went down. I only wish our sources (several of whom were certainly in a position to know) had shared that littel tidbit about JMS actually owning the rights to the fiilm. That would have made clear much that was obscure about the way the deal was structured and who controlled what. Barring that I wish JMS could have found a way to steer us in the right direction. Much skull sweat could have been saved with a word or two from him. And it isn't like the members of the War Council are hard to get hold of.
There are too many entirely plausible reasons for JMS not to be able to comment further on these points at the moment. A number of them are variations on the idea that it is bad form (and career damaging) to say harsh thiings in public about people you may have to work with later. Even when he was pretty sure that he had burned all his bridges at TNT, JMS let several months pass before he gave us his version of what had happenedd - and even that was couched in the form of a "Fairy Tale". It may take him awhile to decide what he wants to / can say about all this, in what detail and in what form. There could also be more positive reasons (with reference to the future of the B5 universe) for his silence, but if so the experience of the whole last year will almost certainly make him much more reluctant to enumerate his poultry before the eggs have given up their fruit.
Regards,
Joe
That's funny. It seems to me that he did comment. The letter writing campaign was not "less than pointless" because the assumption that Warner Bros. had nothing at all to do with the project is false, and therefore the conclusion that the fan effort was pointless was also false.
It seems quite plausible to me that at some point in the complex process of geting funding (which often turns on proving you've got distribution or some other thinjg already lined up) the would-be producers of TMoS wen to WB for co-financing or a distribution deal and were given WB's standard "We big studio, we only use big actors" spiel and at that point tried to get big names. When WB passed along the information about all the damned letters they were getting asking for the original cast, the producers finally decided to try to get them. Which would explain why Mira (according to Moyra) was never in the loop on the film the whole time leading up to it, but was suddenly in a position to declare it dead last week. She was finally approached and couldn't agree to terms with the producers. (My guess is that the amounts they could offer the actors absent certain funding or a distribution deal with Warner Bros. wasn't enough to tempt any of them or to inspire much confidence in the film. And if all they could offer in lieu of up-front payments were "profit participation" deals - well, we all know from JMS how well those things usually work out.) The fact that Jerry Doyle and Stephen Furst discussed how they personally had only been contacted about possible cameo roles in a film where their parts would be recast on Doyle's radio show as recently as last month also supports what we've been saying all along.
I believe the letter-writing campaign may have had the effect of convincing the producers that they'd be better off with the original cast, but given that they had been screwing around trying to avoid that for so many months while still paying for office space, options and deposits on production space meant that by the time they did the right thing it was too late. There either wasn't the time or wasn't the money to do the thing right, and JMS finally chose not to renew the option rather than let this collection of well-meaning wannabes go further with the project. I respect his decision. And I stand by our actions and our accounts of what went down. I only wish our sources (several of whom were certainly in a position to know) had shared that littel tidbit about JMS actually owning the rights to the fiilm. That would have made clear much that was obscure about the way the deal was structured and who controlled what. Barring that I wish JMS could have found a way to steer us in the right direction. Much skull sweat could have been saved with a word or two from him. And it isn't like the members of the War Council are hard to get hold of.
There are too many entirely plausible reasons for JMS not to be able to comment further on these points at the moment. A number of them are variations on the idea that it is bad form (and career damaging) to say harsh thiings in public about people you may have to work with later. Even when he was pretty sure that he had burned all his bridges at TNT, JMS let several months pass before he gave us his version of what had happenedd - and even that was couched in the form of a "Fairy Tale". It may take him awhile to decide what he wants to / can say about all this, in what detail and in what form. There could also be more positive reasons (with reference to the future of the B5 universe) for his silence, but if so the experience of the whole last year will almost certainly make him much more reluctant to enumerate his poultry before the eggs have given up their fruit.
Regards,
Joe
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Re: IT\'S DEAD, JIM?
As usual in these caes, it depends on exactly how the contract was written.
Assuming it was a fairly standard deal, the actual words and descriptions would obviously belong to the rights-holder. So would the story, the basic narrative. structure. How to explain this? Let's say that Arthur Conan Doyle were a screenwriter, and had given XYZ corp an option to make a movie about his character Sherlock Holmes, based on an original screenplay call A Study in Scarlet. If the deal fell through and the rights to Holmes reverted to Doyle he'd be free to team up with new producers to release the films The Hound of the Baskervilles, The Sign of Four, etc. He could certainly refer back to Holmes and Watson's first meeting, probably to the fact that it took place at Bart's, and maybe even that Holmes deduced on sight that Watson was a ex-Army surgeon newly returned from Afghanistan (or at least duty overseas.) What he could probably not do is quote dialogue directly from the unfilmed script or feature a flashback to the scene where Watson and Holmes first meet without making some arrangement with the folks who own the rights to the script. In the case of TMoS I suspect that the new characters created expressly for it would also belong to the copyright holder on the script, and not to JMS.
By the way, this new insight into the business arrangement makes it easier for me to understand why at least the rumors seemed to indicate that the story would be somewhat peripheral to the main B5 story. A story about Shadowtech with "guest star" roles in the foreground and maybe a bit of overlap with Crusade seemed a bit like a "thowaway" to me, and on odd choice for what might be the only shot at a WB-backed major B5 feature. But it makes perfect sense if this was going to be a rather risky venture with some folks who might or might not be able to pull off a feature film. Why blow a story like the Telepath War, with the risk that the script would end up in the hands of the producers who had failed to make the movie, as TMoS evidently has? By using a standalone story JMS lost relatively little. If things had worked out and the film had done well he would have been in an ideal position to do the Teep War or some other "big" story as the inevitable sequel. Since they haven't he still has that story to use in the future when circumstances will ensure that it gets told on his terms.
Regards,
Joe
As usual in these caes, it depends on exactly how the contract was written.
Assuming it was a fairly standard deal, the actual words and descriptions would obviously belong to the rights-holder. So would the story, the basic narrative. structure. How to explain this? Let's say that Arthur Conan Doyle were a screenwriter, and had given XYZ corp an option to make a movie about his character Sherlock Holmes, based on an original screenplay call A Study in Scarlet. If the deal fell through and the rights to Holmes reverted to Doyle he'd be free to team up with new producers to release the films The Hound of the Baskervilles, The Sign of Four, etc. He could certainly refer back to Holmes and Watson's first meeting, probably to the fact that it took place at Bart's, and maybe even that Holmes deduced on sight that Watson was a ex-Army surgeon newly returned from Afghanistan (or at least duty overseas.) What he could probably not do is quote dialogue directly from the unfilmed script or feature a flashback to the scene where Watson and Holmes first meet without making some arrangement with the folks who own the rights to the script. In the case of TMoS I suspect that the new characters created expressly for it would also belong to the copyright holder on the script, and not to JMS.
By the way, this new insight into the business arrangement makes it easier for me to understand why at least the rumors seemed to indicate that the story would be somewhat peripheral to the main B5 story. A story about Shadowtech with "guest star" roles in the foreground and maybe a bit of overlap with Crusade seemed a bit like a "thowaway" to me, and on odd choice for what might be the only shot at a WB-backed major B5 feature. But it makes perfect sense if this was going to be a rather risky venture with some folks who might or might not be able to pull off a feature film. Why blow a story like the Telepath War, with the risk that the script would end up in the hands of the producers who had failed to make the movie, as TMoS evidently has? By using a standalone story JMS lost relatively little. If things had worked out and the film had done well he would have been in an ideal position to do the Teep War or some other "big" story as the inevitable sequel. Since they haven't he still has that story to use in the future when circumstances will ensure that it gets told on his terms.
Regards,
Joe
