JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projects)

[Recoil]

This is something me and a friend seem to talk about everytime we hear of a JMS project that was on the horizon getting shot down.

Obviously he still wants to push for a B5 movie. He seems to be taking on a series in '06 (what that series is, who knows yet). He was also pushing for fan appeal to have him be the next Trek show-runner before it was mentioned that Trek was going to be on ice for a bit. It seems like JMS is very ambitious and wants to get involved with as much as he can.

But what do you think is track record is, and how does this hurt his chances? Let me try to recap (recapping TV and Movie, not comics or other media):

1) Babylon 5. Big success. Highly rated show. Beat the odds. Cult following with strong aftermarket (DVD) sales supporting its growing auidence.

2) Crusade. Failed show. Problems with TNT.

3) Jeremiah. Failed show. Problems with MGM.

4) TMoS - Potential Movie Project. Failed Project. Problems with Studio/Financing.

Just to be honest about what I think, I know people here throw around this B5 phrase "Faith Manages" and its really cute and all...but I really have no faith in a JMS project getting off the ground.

Look. I realize that many of those above problems were for what he deemed valid reasons, and many fans support those reasons (myself included). But the fact remains he hasn't been able to pull off anything since B5 --- no matter what the reasons.

Do you think this hurts his reptuation in the industry? Would Paramount (or whoever) look at someone like him to run Trek given his stubbornness when it comes to the ways HE wants things done? To me it seems like he has a reputation of being hard to work with.

I don't know, this is a conversation a friend and I had after Jeremiah went belly-up. This exact same conversation. Now here we are over a year later, talking about TMoS evaporating. We are revisiting all our old points when discussing why Jeremiah imploded. I realize situations are somewhat different, but I can't shake the feeling that we won't see a JMS project get off the ground, B5 or not (and please refrain from those "faith manages" cliches).

To be totally and completely honest. I don't want to hear so much as a peep or a rumor about any possible B5 project anymore. Not a word. Nothing until filming begins. Its really not worth the whole roller coaster ride.

I just have serious doubts as to JMS being able to work with anyone in Television and the Movie Industry right now. Maybe its an un-informed opinion, but it is *MY* opinion and from where I sit, its not an incredibly unreasonable or unbelievable one. And I just wonder how all of this effects his ability to be selected for projects.

Thoughts?

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

1) May I request your assessment... on which percentage of pilot movies become television shows... and which percent of television shows ever reach a "planned" ending?

I am poorly informed about this... but to my knowledge, most television shows are built in such manner... that they won't even *try* achieving distant goals. Numerous of them live day by day, or season by season.

JMS set somewhat of a standard with Babylon 5... and apparently, he does *not* have terrible interest in passing below this bar. He wants to jump over it.

2) May I request your attention for the point... that JMS does different kinds of ventures -- not merely movies or TV shows.

I lack a precise overview of his doings... but to my understanding, there is a reasonable number of successes among his projects.

3) Finally there is the market. Without a market willing to buy... producing something is pointless. The market for Babylon 5 clearly exists, and has not been spoilt.

 

[Sigma]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

I might be in minority here but IMHO the best case scenario for creative standpoint would be if JMS would not be show-runner but the "second man" or co-showrunner. My dream scenario would be JMS as main scriptwriter (as EP) in Whedon run scifi show, or something similar. Hope you get the point.

As good as worldbuilder he is, i think he is not the greatest showrunner. This is just my opinion.

 

[RMcD]

You missed one!

5) Legend of the Rangers. Failed show. Problems with the ratings.

I always assumed that the B5 universe would penetrate the mass popular consciousness one day, but that the Babylon 5 series itself was not the incarnation that would do it, simply because it requires such a level of ongoing commitment from the viewer. But the series already exists for the fans and afficionados, it's already been made, in full.. That battle no longer needs to be fought. The next logical progression is something that can appeal to everyone else..

I thought Crusade might do it, but it never had a chance.. Then I assumed that B5 would follow the Star Trek model and become a huge movie franchise. But lately I've begun to think that the conditions that led to the early Star Trek movies becoming such a mass cultural phenomenon just don't exist any more.. There's just too much of this stuff being made now for a B5 movie to stand out (and I've always thought B5 approaches movie quality already, despite being for television).

Now I'm wondering if JMS is the person to do it. He's good at character and good at long, drawn out plot development, but the stand-alone stuff is generally not his best. Ideally I think B5 should be revived in a television incarnation at some point in the future (that seems to be its natural home), by someone equally talented but able to make a clean break with the past, ie. new cast, new story, new writers, new premise, new era etc.

More of Sheridan, Delenn and the rest may appeal to us fans, but the old guard are carrying so much story baggage around now that its frankly only going to alienate everyone else.. Besides, we know what happens to their characters.. They can't unexpectedly die, or lose an eye, or anything.. They can't undergo any significant development.. JMS needs to start getting radical here..

 

[Recoil]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

1) May I request your assessment... on which percentage of pilot movies become television shows... and which percent of television shows ever reach a "planned" ending?

Not my point, and not worth my time to find out. I am talking about JMS's activities, not what everyone else does. There is too much stuff out there to come up with a bell curve and grade the class.

2) May I request your attention for the point... that JMS does different kinds of ventures -- not merely movies or TV shows.

As I stated above, I am looking at ONLY his TV shows and Movie projects for this. As I said, I realize he does comics and all sorts of stuff (although his Rising Stars came close to not finishing because of a disagreement with the publisher).

RMcD is right though, I did forget one:

5) Legend of the Rangers (pilot for potential series). Series not offered up. Problems with the ratings.

(not to mention, that overall this was not a B5-quality telemovie in the first place).

 

[KoshFan]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

On the other hand he's got several successful comic books out there, and they signed him on to do Spiderman for a while (including the 9/11 issue).

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

Hmm, some musings ...

TMoS
TMoS only suffered the same fate that dozens of other optioned movie scripts do every year - we just don't normally get to hear the early rumours about them.

Jeremiah
Jeremiah went two seasons and from what I have seen of the way S2 was treated (from afar I grant you) there seems little chance that there would have been a third season with or without JMS' "falling out with MGM". If MGM/Showtime were committed to the show, they would surely have found someone to take the reins for another season or two. Or three.

Let's also not forget Jeremiah's companion show "Odyssey 5", which was canned before the end of its first season, in spite of having consistently out-rated Jeremiah. Hardly seems like a stable home for any genre series.

Crusade
Crusade was killed before it got out of the gate, because TNT just didn't want it. The show didn't fail because of JMS' problems with TNT, the show failed because TNT wanted it dead and JMS' problems with them were the result of that process, not the cause of it.

LotR
A blot on the JMS copy book. It is certainly not up to B5's standard, although it is a pretty enjoyable romp in its own right. It always struck me as a failed attempt to appeal to a new and different audience to the original B5 series. Sometimes you get that right, sometimes you don't. And I don't recall there being any question of problems between JMS and SFC.

JMS himself has stated on more than one occasion that he should be hard-core unemployable (his words not mine), because of his unwillingness to compromise his vision or suffer fools gladly.

However, he does bring his shows in on time and on budget, which I imagine is a reasonable trade-off as far as the cash-conscious studios are concerned, and therefore makes him an attractive option. The fact that he still gets offered show-runner positions indicates that the TV industry still considers him to be an asset in that position.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

Seems reasonable to suspect his rep. Even if he's right about everything and all that stuff failed and it wasn't his fault, and TNT is awful and MGM suck ass and people aren't cool enough to be obsessive B5 fans or whatever, he still has a track record of failure for recent history. TV/film execs don't go on JMSnews.com or B5TV.com and have colonyearth or KoshN or Joseph DeMartino explain the painful details of why War Zone sucked and they wore the wrong color uniforms. All they see is- Crusade: FAILED.

 

[Loburian]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

Having a lot of failures would not hurt as much as you think. How many shows each year get cancelled? Alot. How many shows by people who had hit shows before get cancelled? Alot - its par for the course.

The tv show business is a crapshoot most of the time. That is why there are so many copy-cats of successful shows.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

The other thing is that JMS is still very much in the game, with various offers and projects. He's better off with these opportunities, even when they fail, rather than not being active, which would make him less attractive to the industry that having a few misses.

 

[tlsmith1963]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

Sure JMS is difficult, but I wish more people in the industry would be. Then maybe we would get better TV-series & films. I get so tired of all the garbage that is produced every year.

Tammy

 

[KoshN]

This is something me and a friend seem to talk about everytime we hear of a JMS project that was on the horizon getting shot down.

Obviously he still wants to push for a B5 movie. He seems to be taking on a series in '06 (what that series is, who knows yet). He was also pushing for fan appeal to have him be the next Trek show-runner before it was mentioned that Trek was going to be on ice for a bit. It seems like JMS is very ambitious and wants to get involved with as much as he can.

But what do you think is track record is, and how does this hurt his chances? Let me try to recap (recapping TV and Movie, not comics or other media):

1) Babylon 5. Big success. Highly rated show. Beat the odds. Cult following with strong aftermarket (DVD) sales supporting its growing auidence.

2) Crusade. Failed show. Problems with TNT.

3) Jeremiah. Failed show. Problems with MGM.

4) TMoS - Potential Movie Project. Failed Project. Problems with Studio/Financing.

You forgot the B5: Rangers pilot, "To Live and Die in Starlight."

Just to be honest about what I think, I know people here throw around this B5 phrase "Faith Manages" and its really cute and all...but I really have no faith in a JMS project getting off the ground.

You're not the only one.

Do you think this hurts his reptuation in the industry?

That he hasn't been able to pull off a success on TV since B5? No. Successes on TV are pretty rare. Most things prematurely fail, deservedly or not.

Would Paramount (or whoever) look at someone like him to run Trek given his stubbornness when it comes to the ways HE wants things done?

Unlikely.

To me it seems like he has a reputation of being hard to work with.

Agreed. That seems to be his rep. In an industry where stupid shit is suggested all the time, by complete blithering idiots, JMS looks like an obstructionist, like he's more trouble than he's worth.

To be totally and completely honest. I don't want to hear so much as a peep or a rumor about any possible B5 project anymore. Not a word. Nothing until filming begins. Its really not worth the whole roller coaster ride.

Agreed except that I don't want to hear a word until it's available for viewing, i.e. a finished product. Tired of all the long, slow, torturous fizzles.

I just have serious doubts as to JMS being able to work with anyone in Television and the Movie Industry right now.

So do I.

 

[Flounder]

Perhaps to satisy you guys we could set up a forum exclusively for the discussion of upcomming projects, so you won't hear about them before they are released.

I'd like to see you resist that temptation.

Seriously though, I am thankfull to JMS for giving us the insight into the industry.

 

[Almir]

There's nobody I can't relate more on this board than Recoil.
This guy thinks exactly like me (or the other way around).

I remember some 8 months ago, I think, when I post a topic about JMS silence and no official announcement, Recoil backed me up and some people called us "naysayers".
By the way, here's the link: http://www.b5tv.com/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/255340/an/0/page/3#255340
Now you know that such behavior never applied.
We were being "realistic".

Nobody wants more B5 than me!
Recoil is totally correct on this one.
Before I got in front of my computer I was thinking in post a topic about "Troubled Joe", but when I logged in here, Recoil had it nailed.

So I'm not going to repeat everything, but like him and KoshN, I had enough of the "faith manages" routine.

 

[channe]

I've been thinking this sort of thing, too.

I'm okay with rumors, and it looks like this one got pretty far -- but, honestly, I think Recoil has it nailed. I'd think he needs to find himself at the helm of a successful show or movie, and *fast.*

Jeremiah was a good show -- excellent production values, decent scripts, etc. Except for the crowd scenes, which were consistently awful.

He's a great writer, and a decent plotter. Maybe this next show will be "the one."

But my "Faith Manages" routine has gone the way of the dodo by now.

 

[KoshN]

Perhaps to satisy you guys we could set up a forum exclusively for the discussion of upcomming projects, so you won't hear about them before they are released.

That'd be nice, but I'd never ask for it. I'll just avoid those threads.

I'd like to see you resist that temptation.

Just watch me. No problemo. Hey, if I can completely shun FOX and TNT, I can do that.

Love your new avatar, btw. (Vir from Babylon Park)

 

[darth_librarian]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

I just have serious doubts as to JMS being able to work with anyone in Television and the Movie Industry right now. Maybe its an un-informed opinion, but it is *MY* opinion and from where I sit, its not an incredibly unreasonable or unbelievable one. And I just wonder how all of this effects his ability to be selected for projects.

I'm not going to totally agree with you on this, but I can see your argument, and I agree with Channe, the guy needs to get a show on the air fast. Luckily this looks like it may be happening.

The fact is Hollywood is littered with producers whose's shows and projects fail for all sorts of reasons. A good example is Manny Cotto, all his shows prior to Enterprise had failed, yet he got the lauded Trek gig (although in retrospect, he could be seen as giving it its final voyage, hmm bad example). Ron Moore had two shows (Dragonriders of Pern and something else) pulled from him before Battlestar Galactica.

I guess it's a hit rate thing, for every success you get some failures. Cancellations and almost runs are

JMS also sticks to his guns. I admire this tait, but see how it could be 'incompatible' with Hollywood at times.

I also do not want to go through all of this cryptic post nonsense again. Hoepfully, he'll stop being such a tease next time...

On balance, the TMOS setup sounded shakier than I imagined, private finance, dodgy director, unknown producers. I hope the enxt evolution of the project is bigger and stronger.

I also think JMS will be writing for some time yet, look at his comics' works, he goes from strength to strength...

 

[colonyearth]

I've skipped over most of what has been posted in this thread because I'm posting under time constraints, so I apologize if anyone else has said this.

You are basing your assessment of JMS on what you know about his career and what he's told us as far as projects and failures.

Nothing in Hollywood is completely a failure as there are always intangeable advances and successes that come from every attempt to do anything.

The success JMS has shown thus far, from his early work on very successful animated shows, through MURDER SHE WROTE, through B5 (an unheard of type success for most people in Hollywood their entire careers) up until today is beyond most people's level of success already.

Most people in Hollywood (TV or film) have more failed attempts and projects than they do successful ones (especially TV). You just don't hear about projects that fell through or failed most of the time. By your standards in TV, Steven Spielberg is an abyssmal failure in his entire career.

JMS' track record for accomplishment is actually most excellent.

What his fans need to realize is that the reason you're so aware of what you might call failures is because JMS tells you about everything...where most people "in the biz" don't...and have not one desire to associate too much with any fans. JMS is a wonderful acception...and because of that closeness he insists on with his fans...we know more than we would otherwise...and now you're taking that information and labelling a very successful, critically acclaimed and award winning career as a failing one.

This is simply not true. Many writers have projects fall through every day. You just don't hear about those...you only know about the one that gets done.

You also have to realize that each and every one of the examples you gave failed, not because of JMS, but because of suits and their usual moronic decision-making processes.

CRUSADE -- TNT wanted that dead, no matter what JMS did or did not do.

JEREMIAH -- We only know bits and pieces of what happened here, but again, suits were interferring in a show in a big way that JMS had in his contract that they couldn't. I would've walked as well. JMS didn't cancel it though, that was Showtime after he walked. They could've kept it going if they had wanted to. But they wisely realized that the majority of their fans for the show were actually JMS fans and would walk with him.

TMoS -- Again we only know a portion of what happened, but this was bad decision making on the part of suits that killed this...JMS fought for over a year for the integrity of this project and even extended his deadline (which he didn't have to do) to try to get a deal through. Finally, he realized it wasn't the right incarnation and if he wanted to get a good B5 film made, this wasn't the way to do it.

LoTR -- This failed because of two reasons...first, Sci-Fi refused to acknowledge the playoffs schedule change issue because of 9/11 and how that affected the ratings...and also refused to accept the ratings for the second airing, which were close to what BG, SG-1 and ATLANTIS are getting now. There was also the issue of how Sci-Fi wanted to own part of B5 and how WB refused to allow that. This is also ultimately what killed FARSCAPE, so it happened to them as well as JMS.

LoTR was a good pilot, better in many ways than most pilots are. I firmly believe that if it had gone to series, it would have found its usual JMS footing and wonder and excitement...and would still be on today and be very successful. I also believe it was going to deal with the CRUSADE issues (the ones TMoS was going to deal with -- the story JMS keeps trying to tell), leftover Shadow tech.

As for why Sci-Fi didn't pick up CRUSADE...that blame rests squarely on the shoulders of TNT and WB. TNT wanted tons of cash for the rights to take it over (which Sci-Fi couldn't afford at the time) and WB still, again, wouldn't let Sci-Fi own any of it (which they really wanted...they wanted an original that they got a piece of the action on).

So...to blame JMS for any of this...is bad deduction at best. The most I can ever fault JMS for is keeping his integrity intact and the integrity of his creation (B5) at its best. And I would never fault him for any of that.

Due to his overwhelming industry success, he is still a very hot commodity (which is why he's constantly working on several projects at once -- something I would never label a failure).

CE

 

[Recoil]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

I've skipped over most of what has been posted in this thread because I'm posting under time constraints, so I apologize if anyone else has said this.

Was I the only one who thought it was ironic that for time constraints that was a damn long post?

Anyway, some of your points are valid, and I realize he has done good work on Murder She Wrote and Walker Texas Ranger. I also realize that we do hear more news, because he posts on the web, earlier than we would in a normal situation.

But still, I just can't shake this feeling I have, that my confidence is waivering. Thats really what this post is about. There are plenty of people who post about "faith manages" and "sooner or later we will have more B5 content" or "someday my prince will come" but frankly, I'm trying to throw a post out there for those of us who arent necessiarly pessimestic, but not optimistic either. Just trying to see if others feel the way myself and my friend do.

 

[Flounder]

Re: JMS - Reputation (relating to potential projec

Was I the only one who thought it was ironic that for time constraints that was a damn long post?

No.

The reason we hear about the failures is that he tells us.
And the reason for -- or the result of -- him being "picky" is that the shows seem made with respect for the viewers, in my humble opinion.

EDIT:

Love your new avatar, btw. (Vir from Babylon Park)

Thanks. Have been using it for a long time on other forums. And when the avatar self-service begun, I exchanged the stock photo of Vir with the Babylon Park variant.