JMS: The man and the legend

[hypatia]

I'm glancing through this thread and wondering: what is/was its purpose?

 

[2aMageing]

That sounds like the bast that we can probably do here Jan. Best if left behind. I don't like leaving someone unhappy but it seems the topic has brought it out one way or another. It is my hope that it does not need to be so between us. .....But I want GKE to kneel down and say he's wrong RIGHT NOW......

 

[2aMageing]

Yah. I dunno Hyp. I was reading about people's response to JMS's response to inquires about the movie and thought I might drop a new thread comparing the personalities of "creator" figures like a JMS or a Gene Roddenberry with the impressions their series' fans have of them. I put forth the suggestion that there may be a sort of phenomena of fans seeking more about the figure than they might actually have information to base it on.

Then the thread became a very specific thing about JMS and people shouldn't be prying or something like that and now my only hope for the thread is that it might return to a forum for people to express their views on the topic.

I don't know ... it has gotten so wierd I'm not confident of where anything stands in it at this point.

The concept was/is:
Do fans of B5, for example, notice a kind of "glow" regarding JMS and what do people think of him in general?

I can't say much for myself as I have not kept on top of ALL his online chat material and the like....but I am guessing he is something like the classic creator/prime mover, that he desires final control over his creations, is perhaps a shade eccentric as are many in the Sci Fi Creator line, and may even be so skilled with online, written, and verbal communication that we really don't know what kind of a person he is. Something everone I would imagine has an opinion about or impression of. He seems like an ethical, philisophical sort of person, but with a desire to not be challanged by others in regard to his creations.

That's my impression of JMS. Offered for the record. All I would like from the thread is an airing of the general B5 population's impressions of the man that started it all.

 

[hypatia]

The concept was/is:
Do fans of B5, for example, notice a kind of "glow" regarding JMS and what do people think of him in general?

I am actually relatively new to his newsgroup postings. What I can say about JMS and my inmpressions of him:

1) he is passionate. [That is definitely a two-edged sword at least )

2) Buddy. That's all I need to say there (are you aware of the cat-rescue story?)

3) He can seem to be very short-tempered. But nothing like Harlan Ellison.

He seems to be an interesting guy, but what can you really say knowing someone only through his work and his online postings?

 

[wolfranger]

I can't say much for myself as I have not kept on top of ALL his online chat material and the like....but I am guessing he is something like the classic creator/prime mover, that he desires final control over his creations, is perhaps a shade eccentric as are many in the Sci Fi Creator line, and may even be so skilled with online, written, and verbal communication that we really don't know what kind of a person he is. Something everone I would imagine has an opinion about or impression of. He seems like an ethical, philisophical sort of person, but with a desire to not be challanged by others in regard to his creations.

JMS may seem to be a person who demands full control to some people. But Babylon 5 was his creation, he dreamed it up, wrote it and fought for many years to get it to television. He put up with keeping his dream alive to finish the 5 year arc, many time not knowing if he could until the 11th hour. So does he not deserve to have the control of how his story should be told.

His JOB is writing stories, that is the profession he chose. I personaly think he does that very well. There are very few writers who would try to get a 5 year arc on television and all the while he still takes time to answer fan questions not only about the show but on how to write, something he seems (to me at least)to LOVE and want to help other people with.

I respect the man for all he has accomplished, his public face is what I see and his public face is all I care about

 

[Sindatur]

2amageing, allow me to interject where I feel this may have gone wrong from the beginning.

As stated, JMS is a very passionate artist. He undertook a phenomenol task bringing a 5 year arc to the little screen, and raising the bar of scifi television.

He has been put through the wringer many times by various different "Powers that be".

Depending upon who you listen to, or what you read you may have the impression that JMS "doesn't play well with others" or has a God complex, or any other insulting analogies, or you may believe he is a passionate artist, who has a grand vision, and "Powers that Be" interferring in that vision, try to water down that vision.

While it may not have been your intention, your poll gives the impression, that you are perpetuating the stereotypes, that he indeed "doesn't play well with others", and even trying to dive deeper into by dragging out any possible information from his personal life.

Naturally, those of who feel, he has gotten raw deals, (Rising Stars or Midnight Nation [not sure which one], Crusade, LotR, Spiderman, Crusade DVD commentary, now apparently TMoS, and probably several we may not even have heard of) and have seen some of the really insulting posts on the moderated boards (which he has rightly slashed the impertinence of question posers to bits with his literary gifts and humor), we have a tendancy to react with, an "Enough is enough" attitude. It's not that we actually think he is a God, but, he is a visionary, and as much as we have seen him be disrespected at times, we have a tendancy to feel the need to defend him when we see yet more attacks.

As I've said, it seems from your shock and your later posts that a lack of respect or a perpetuating of stereotypes was not your intention, but, it did come off that way.

 

[rangerPHIL]

JMS 'IS' Kosh.

after all 'We are ALL Kosh!'

 

[2aMageing]

I would dare to say that is probably a reasonable summation. I would hope those that are familia with me would know that if had a claim about someone to make I would make it directly and not waste time with backhanded allusions and inferences.

I have too much respect for the work he has done to have any inclination to tear the man down..... especially since I have never even met him and would be in an asinine position to talk about someone in detail without having ever met him in the flesh.

At most I would be saying that what you see, even via what he writes to people on-line MAY not be what you get....and that fans of a great show may have elevated expectations of that show's creator....I think this is probably the best summary of where I have been coming from.

But now I am inclined to say it is kind of sad that, due to sensitivity created from OTHER peoples tresspasses that so much negetive can be read into a JMS thread topic so quickly and with such confidence, that it seems like JMS has become an unapproachable subject, at least in some circles....and that does not seem good since B5 and JMS are inextricably linked for time and eternity.

Anyway, a skillfully, and largely impartial description of the big picture, Sindatur, IMHO.

As I was inclined to do from the beginning I would prefer to not have (or have had) much pressence in this thread as I was hoping for others input and had already placed mine at the beginning......so perhaps people can continue to gain some benefit from the thread and I will be QUITE happy to do what I always like to do, listen. I am now doubtful that a debate of the concept I had in mind is going to be able to happen in a calm and disciplined way, given the circumstances surounding the primary example....and I suppose that's fine......the thread would be just as well served as a sort of place for people to pay their respects and opinions of JMS....if this is acceptable to others??

 

[2aMageing]

JMS 'IS' Kosh.

after all 'We are ALL Kosh!'

Mmmm, deep. But JMS can't be too much Kosh....he doesn't seem to be cryptic enough for it...... ....then again......

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Actually it seems like frequenly the above average accomplishments come from someone of above average eccentricities.

First, plant the seeds of suspicion.

With great strengths and skills there must also come great weaknesses and inabilities.

Second, misquote Spiderman

As fans we tend to glow to great extremes about the material the people who brought it into existance. But it seems like we sometimes assume more than we have evidence to base the judgements upon. But than again maybe I'm way off here and there really are near perfect people running around cranking out great Science Fiction.

Third, suggest that fan's feelings are misguided (as they may well be) and finish with a little sarcasm.

Note: JMS is a great writer, it shows in multiple series, and I wish to take NOTHING away from that.

Next, preface your conclusion with an apologetic platitude.

But Homeruns and Hugo winning tv shows don't speak to the character of a person.

Before reaffirming initial statement.

I won a Starfox jacket for my skill in the US based competition for that Nintendo game. It does not mean I'm the most skilled ladies man alive.......although it could still be true despite the lack of evidence........

That's the kicker, ain't it? Even if you were only gauging fan's personal opinion of jms, (which as others have pointed out, is useless since it based only on his work and occasional posts) your survey is filled with baseless remarks.


All I know is jms is a busy man, married, somewhat down to Earth, will fight if backed in a corner, likes cats, and doesn't really enjoy the cult of personality. Don't forget, for every fan that loves you, there are several others ready to attack. We've seen it happen. He's not always right, sometimes he sees it, sometimes he doesn't. More often than not, he's been straight with the fans and tried to please us as best he could. What else is there?

p.s Congrats on the jacket.

 

[2aMageing]

Actually it seems like frequenly the above average accomplishments come from someone of above average eccentricities.

First, plant the seeds of suspicion.

With great strengths and skills there must also come great weaknesses and inabilities.

Second, misquote Spiderman

As fans we tend to glow to great extremes about the material the people who brought it into existance. But it seems like we sometimes assume more than we have evidence to base the judgements upon. But than again maybe I'm way off here and there really are near perfect people running around cranking out great Science Fiction.

Third, suggest that fan's feelings are misguided (as they may well be) and finish with a little sarcasm.

Note: JMS is a great writer, it shows in multiple series, and I wish to take NOTHING away from that.

Next, preface your conclusion with an apologetic platitude.

But Homeruns and Hugo winning tv shows don't speak to the character of a person.

Before reaffirming initial statement.

I won a Starfox jacket for my skill in the US based competition for that Nintendo game. It does not mean I'm the most skilled ladies man alive.......although it could still be true despite the lack of evidence........

That's the kicker, ain't it? Even if you were only gauging fan's personal opinion of jms, (which as others have pointed out, is useless since it based only on his work and occasional posts) your survey is filled with baseless remarks.


All I know is jms is a busy man, married, somewhat down to Earth, will fight if backed in a corner, likes cats, and doesn't really enjoy the cult of personality. Don't forget, for every fan that loves you, there are several others ready to attack. We've seen it happen. He's not always right, sometimes he sees it, sometimes he doesn't. More often than not, he's been straight with the fans and tried to please us as best he could. What else is there?

p.s Congrats on the jacket.

Ok ,I don't know if this is in jest or someone trying to "call" me on a supposed ....I guess hypocrisy.....but I have to answer points with points.......(since the later is likely)

Point 1: ---- "the above average accomplishments come from someone of above average eccentricities."

"plant the seeds of suspicion" ----- it sounds more like that is what is already growing here......the quote you pulled refers to a type of personality generating a type of result....it's called a model or concept and it was, to my recollection NEVER APPLIED TO ANYONE SPECIFICALLY, and simply tossed out as a not illegitimate pattern visible in the creation of great art.........................


Point 2: ---- ....sorry I misquoted Spiderman...but many of the mythic concepts have grounds in reality ......I think I read that somewhere................



Point 3: ---- "Third, suggest that fan's feelings are misguided (as they may well be) and finish with a little sarcasm."

It sounds like you are making my concept for me and the fact that it ws followed up with a little sarcasm to lighten the weight of the concept seems not in he least criminal by any yard stick I can think to apply......and this realated to my assault on JMS how??



Point.....where am I???....that's right, 4:
"Next, preface your conclusion with an apologetic platitude.

"JMS is a great writer, it shows in multiple series, and I wish to take NOTHING away from that."

I see no appology in that and I have NOTHING to appologize for. If at any point I have appologized it would be because "at some point one side has to surrender..." and this quote pulled is certainly nothing resembling an appology and if you think my praise of JMS was insincere than I suggest you call me a LIAR to my face in a more honerable fashion......because my patience is waning and if anyone thinks this unending criticism of me is in any way noble or dutiful than you are living in a self designed fantasyland.

I gave JMS his props because he earned them and it occured to me I had people see to thing that credit unspoken is credit unapplied.....so for the simple thinking critics I made my feeling clear.

Even though the criticism is only coming about 50% of the time it is ongoing and I am SICK of explaining the PLAIN talking I have been doing to people who are ASSUMING they know my meaning and CONDEMNING me, even if only in their own minds (Which is obvously not enough for some poeple). I now feel a sick sense of doom everytime I dutifully check in this thread as I now expect the same negetive responses many have attributed to my postings, except I am pretty sure your meanings are clear while mine seem to be food for other people's fiction.

Is there anything else anyone would like to "call" me on.....so my OBVIOUS disgraceful activities can be fully revealed for the malevolent intentions they are......THEN maybe we can let the thread proceed in peace?????


PS. Thanks, I earned it.

 

[2aMageing]

Sundown, you better take care if I find you been creepin round my back stairs.....sometimes I think it's a sin when I feel like I'm winning when I'm losing again.....

Lemon-Lyman indeed.

To sum up.....for those who didn't get me the first 3 or 4 times I have tried to make myself clear......in West Wing-ese..........


"27 lawyers in the room, anyone know "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc"?"

"And then if you could just ask the Secret Service to step in and kill me, please."

"Have you fallen on your head? Have you fallen down and hit your head on something hard?"

"I was watching a television program before, with a kind of roving moderator who spoke to a seated panel of young women who were having some sort of problem with their boyfriends - apparently, because the boyfriends had all slept with the girlfriends' mothers. And they brought the boyfriends out, and they fought, right there on television. Toby, tell me: these people don't vote, do they?"

Josh Lyman: No. You're listening to me, but you're not understanding me.

Toby Ziegler: No, I'm disagreeing with you. That doesn't mean I'm not listening to you or understanding what you're saying - I'm doing all three at the same time.

"Set fire to the room. Do it now."

Since those with their misconceptions, pitchforks, and torches seem content to consider few other possibilities for the current occasion.....they can go ......... themselves and I will no longer waste my feeling and concern upon them. I've gone "to the zoo" and I'm having fun doing it.....I highly recommend it ..... to those who aren't already demonstraiting they are residing there.

 

[Jan]

Your posts are becoming less comprehensible as time passes. I speak only for myself when I say...

Huh??

Jan

 

[channe]

<moderatorspeak> Right, folks -- remember to be play nice! </moderatorspeak>

 

[2aMageing]

Your posts are becoming less comprehensible as time passes. I speak only for myself when I say...

Huh??

Jan

Well at least aomeoneproperly interpreted THAT post.......

that was a me not enjoying baseless detractors and the inevitable thread disruption their peron based commentary ultimately leads to.....so instead of letting myself stew I cut loose and had some fun with it. Feel free to pay any amount of attention ya'll wish to the "quote" post...as it was somewhat random and off the top of my head.

I would guess the formality of the rather informal nature of the dispute was making me unhappier than I was prepared to let a vocal minority make me....(if this is a view held by the majority then there really is a problem........) so I did a semi-controlled overflow ......please feel free to disregard the latter of the two posts.

And I do appreciate the Moderator speak....as things can get out of hand quickly without such from time to time.....Flounder was also helpful in that regard and I am appreciative.

 

[hypatia]

Odd, I didn't know Channe was moderator of this forum. Has Antony chosen his new mods already? Well, congrats, Channe!

As far as the thread goes, I confess I lost track of its meaning some time ago. I gather 2AMageing has a bit of a beef with fan's admiration of JMS, after reading the poll. I've only been glancing through the thread since my initial post.

But then apparant randomness kicked in. I just assumed there was some kind of an inside joke I had missed.

 

[vacantlook]

Odd, I didn't know Channe was moderator of this forum. Has Antony chosen his new mods already? Well, congrats, Channe!

I would guess that channe's just stepping in due to proximity of this forum to the B5.related forum since there's no listed moderator to this forum yet, unless indeed channe has been picked to mod two forums.

 

[channe]

No, I haven't been picked to mod the forum, nor have I asked to mod the forum. I'm still over at b5.related. That honor will go to another unlucky bast -- oops, uh, happy poster.



But while there's no moderator, we still want to make sure that the board remains civil. So. My post.

 

[Jan]

Apologies if I posted inappropriately, Channe.

Jan

 

[hypatia]

Oh, I see. I thought maybe Antony was having you do double-duty here.