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Just watched B5: In the Beginning (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Darkshowers
- Start date
Starkiller
Member
Hello,
This is my first post here (I know it's evident under my avatar) but I thought I'd give a brief introduction. I first started to watch the Babylon 5 television series around 10 years ago when it was screened on Channel 4 in the UK. I was always fascinated with the space battles, the use of Newtonian physics and of course the intricate pieces of drama that were woven into the story. A few years back I decided to buy the Season 3 and 4 boxsets in addition to the film box set (containing Thirdspace, The River of Souls and A Call to Arms) and of course In the Beginning. I'm particularly fascinated by the latter as it sheds light on the devastating Earth-Minbari war. Since I've downloaded the Babylon Project game (adapted from the Freespace 2 source code) and started watching season 4 of B5 I've become more curious as to how Earth could have prosecuted the war differently against the Minbari. Before I go further, I realise that at least in part the film was supposed to show the stubborn nobility and indomitable nature of the human spirit when facing impossible odds. If that were changed (i.e. Humanity fighting to a stalemate/total victory) then it would change the very fabric of the story. However, I would like to ask some hypothetical questions as it could spark an interesting discussion on an already fascinating universe.
Firstly, on the Babylon 5 Project Wikia, it states:
At the Flinn colony, ground-based human weapons forced the Minbari to land soldiers on the planet, and massive hand-to-hand combat raged across the planet's surface. In the end every human on the Flinn colony was killed, but the Minbari suffered heavy casualties in the fighting.
Link
While I have not seen any use of armoured vehicles, close support aircraft (akin to helicopter gunships/ ground attack jet aircraft) and so forth in the B5 universe. Is it known whether employed a ground military akin to what a 21st century military force would use? I know that one arm of EarthForce is the Marine Corps. The US Marine Corps has its own air wings in addition to armoured vehicles and of course infantry. On the wiki page for the EFM it only mentions one infantry division and nothing else.
Despite the physiological advantages a Minbari has over a human being. Did any humans 'best' a Minbari in combat? Could humans still hurt them despite being physically weaker? For instance there would be various forms of martial arts that are adapted for use by special forces (i.e. Krav Maga) which could be used.
Secondly, did EarthForce consider the use of genetic enhancement for its marines? For instance to make them more stronger and durable in the field. They could even include advanced healing among other things in the genetic resequencing process. I always thought that devlopement and use of advanced artificial initelligence machines may have alleviated some of the casualty burden if prototypes could have been constructed in time. Machines akin to 'Terminators' (from the James Cameron films) may have been apt. They'd be much stronger and have armoured chassis which would make it easier to combat the Minbari in the field. I realise the length of the war was only two years and no such project would likely have been in developement given the sudden outbreak of war (rather than a gradual mounting of political tension).
Thirdly, the Earth Alliance bought some weapons from the Narn. Do we know if any of them were used? What sort of weapons were they? I watched the Intersections in Real Time episode from seasons 4. It's where Sheridan is interrogated by the 'Minister' who reveals that the metallic ring device around his neck was given to EarthForce by the Narn during the Earth-Minbari. If I recall correctly, the Minister referred to the item as having been put to "good use". Does this mean it was used on Minbari prisoners?
Lastly, I read some Earth colonies employed use of 'hunter killer' soldiers who would go behind enemy lines and kill/sabotage the Minbari. Is there any books or episodes which shed light on what they did? I also remember reading that due to what many of them experienced. It was common for various hunter killers to be mentally unstable?
Thanks and I look forward to posting here again!
This is my first post here (I know it's evident under my avatar) but I thought I'd give a brief introduction. I first started to watch the Babylon 5 television series around 10 years ago when it was screened on Channel 4 in the UK. I was always fascinated with the space battles, the use of Newtonian physics and of course the intricate pieces of drama that were woven into the story. A few years back I decided to buy the Season 3 and 4 boxsets in addition to the film box set (containing Thirdspace, The River of Souls and A Call to Arms) and of course In the Beginning. I'm particularly fascinated by the latter as it sheds light on the devastating Earth-Minbari war. Since I've downloaded the Babylon Project game (adapted from the Freespace 2 source code) and started watching season 4 of B5 I've become more curious as to how Earth could have prosecuted the war differently against the Minbari. Before I go further, I realise that at least in part the film was supposed to show the stubborn nobility and indomitable nature of the human spirit when facing impossible odds. If that were changed (i.e. Humanity fighting to a stalemate/total victory) then it would change the very fabric of the story. However, I would like to ask some hypothetical questions as it could spark an interesting discussion on an already fascinating universe.
Firstly, on the Babylon 5 Project Wikia, it states:
At the Flinn colony, ground-based human weapons forced the Minbari to land soldiers on the planet, and massive hand-to-hand combat raged across the planet's surface. In the end every human on the Flinn colony was killed, but the Minbari suffered heavy casualties in the fighting.
Link
While I have not seen any use of armoured vehicles, close support aircraft (akin to helicopter gunships/ ground attack jet aircraft) and so forth in the B5 universe. Is it known whether employed a ground military akin to what a 21st century military force would use? I know that one arm of EarthForce is the Marine Corps. The US Marine Corps has its own air wings in addition to armoured vehicles and of course infantry. On the wiki page for the EFM it only mentions one infantry division and nothing else.
Despite the physiological advantages a Minbari has over a human being. Did any humans 'best' a Minbari in combat? Could humans still hurt them despite being physically weaker? For instance there would be various forms of martial arts that are adapted for use by special forces (i.e. Krav Maga) which could be used.
Secondly, did EarthForce consider the use of genetic enhancement for its marines? For instance to make them more stronger and durable in the field. They could even include advanced healing among other things in the genetic resequencing process. I always thought that devlopement and use of advanced artificial initelligence machines may have alleviated some of the casualty burden if prototypes could have been constructed in time. Machines akin to 'Terminators' (from the James Cameron films) may have been apt. They'd be much stronger and have armoured chassis which would make it easier to combat the Minbari in the field. I realise the length of the war was only two years and no such project would likely have been in developement given the sudden outbreak of war (rather than a gradual mounting of political tension).
Thirdly, the Earth Alliance bought some weapons from the Narn. Do we know if any of them were used? What sort of weapons were they? I watched the Intersections in Real Time episode from seasons 4. It's where Sheridan is interrogated by the 'Minister' who reveals that the metallic ring device around his neck was given to EarthForce by the Narn during the Earth-Minbari. If I recall correctly, the Minister referred to the item as having been put to "good use". Does this mean it was used on Minbari prisoners?
Lastly, I read some Earth colonies employed use of 'hunter killer' soldiers who would go behind enemy lines and kill/sabotage the Minbari. Is there any books or episodes which shed light on what they did? I also remember reading that due to what many of them experienced. It was common for various hunter killers to be mentally unstable?
Thanks and I look forward to posting here again!
B5_Obsessed
Regular
I'm assuming all armies at some point have to use conventional land and aircraft to secure and hold territory. In the episode GROPOS, General Franklin's Earthforce squads are shown attacking enemy encampments with hovering attack craft. We have also seen that the Thunderbolts are used as heavy bombers when operating in a planetary atmosphere. We don't ever see land vehicles being used, but I would assume they are there. Similarly, Londo worried about a land war on Narn, until Refa extolled the benefits of Mass Drivers. Still, even after orbital bombardment, troops and equipment are always needed to secure the territory and "keep the peace". With the exception of the combat scene in "In the Beginning" B5 tended to focus on space battles, but I would assume the Minbari had some way of deploying troops - even if it meant rappelling out of flyers. They may have developed their attack plan on the fly, since unlike the Narn and Centauri, the Minbari weren't really in the warmongering stage prior to the Prometheus attack.
As for a human vs a Minbari in hand to hand combat, the most obvious case that stands out is when Sinclair successfully beats down Neroon, despite the fact that Neroon attacked him from behind and in the dark! This may have been the result, however, of the details of the Minbari's Vulcan-like strength not being set in stone at that early point in the series. Another nitpick is that the EA does not have artificial gravity and Sinclair, having grown up in the .38 Earth-normal gravity of Mars, should have been a certified weakling, but no matter.
By later Season's, we see Marcus beat to a pulp in a vain and impossible attempt to best Neroon and later we see Marcus lifted off the ground with one hand by the quiet and diminutive Lennier in an uncharacteristic moment of anger.
As for Terminators, genetic enhancement, and other doo-dads of war, I guess that's all up to speculation. We do know that most of the arcane projects were joint ventures of Earthforce and IPX, which strictly focused on reverse engineering of ancient biological technology. Furthermore, the super-secret Bureau 13, with or without the cooperation of the PsyCorps, was involved in mind-control projects and "super soldier" projects culminating in the somewhat successful Project Lazarus. Back to the Terminator idea, I would probably think that even with a tougher armored chasse, any mechanized weapons of war would still be cut to ribbons by the Minbari technology. There was really no contest.
Regarding Narn weapons, they would have been reverse engineered Centauri particle weapons which were still ineffective against the Minbari. They were so irrelevant that even though the Minbari knew where the humans had gotten them, they didn't bother to take out retribution against the Narn for the sale. As for the ring around Sheridan's neck, yes, I would assume that the very few Minbari that were captured during the war were interrogated in just such a manner. They probably never got home to lodge a complaint.
As for Hunter/Killers, I assume we're talking about that nut guy from Nightwatch, (foot bone's connected to the ankle boooone). In the traditional of past and current "professional killers" employed by the military, many of them are dedicated professionals doing a very nasty job in very nasty places. I would speculate that the crazies are more the exception than the norm.
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Hi,
maybe I remember it wrong, but when I watched "In the Beginning" some years ago, I think there was a Soul Hunter ship present during the Earth - Minbari first contact, and the Minbari crew were quite upset about it. But when I watched it again recently, there wasn't any Soul Hunter.
Is there another version of the movie? Or perhaps, it's all just my imagination?
maybe I remember it wrong, but when I watched "In the Beginning" some years ago, I think there was a Soul Hunter ship present during the Earth - Minbari first contact, and the Minbari crew were quite upset about it. But when I watched it again recently, there wasn't any Soul Hunter.
Is there another version of the movie? Or perhaps, it's all just my imagination?
Wow, thank you. I spent several hours examining the movie back and forth, and started thinking maybe I get alzheimer or something ...
That was pretty cool how they had two versions of that event. Of course, they've done that a few times. I think they've always done it well, too. And the actor who played Dukhat was really good.
I do wonder what more there is to know about the Soul Hunters? As in, how much is written in JMS' secret notes about them. If the Minbari fear them so much, have they ever tried to hunt them down? Where could they hide from the Minbari, Vorlon space?
Raw Shark
"Ah, the mysteries of life."
Homer Simpson
I do wonder what more there is to know about the Soul Hunters? As in, how much is written in JMS' secret notes about them. If the Minbari fear them so much, have they ever tried to hunt them down? Where could they hide from the Minbari, Vorlon space?
Raw Shark
"Ah, the mysteries of life."
Homer Simpson
