Londo's 3/5 chances

[raisincajuns]

Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Okay -- I know this has probably been rehashed to death but I have the flu; the kids are in control; and I am hiding out!! In the episode where Majel Barret (can't remember her name in the epp) says that Londo has already wasted two of his chances but he has 5. The last 3 are 1) he must save the eye that cannot see -- now some have stated that they think this is the artifact but if it is one of his last 3 chances how could it be? The artifact epp happened before this 2) He must not kill the one who is already dead -- most people believe this is Sheridan but I think it may be Morden because in the epp where Londo is telling the story, etc. It appears that he failed at the first 2 chances of the last 3 (did that make sense?) if he failed at he must not kill the one who is already dead then it couldn't be Sheridan? 3) His last chance for redemption is to face his greatest fear -- now IMHO this for Londo is death and he faces that by facing off with G'Kar and dying.

Okay I am done rambling now -- please let me know what you all think -- and remember I am ill and may be delirious

 

[Maagic]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Majel's character's name was Lady Morella

I always wondered what his first 2 chances were... Maybe that Narn war thing? That wasn't really HIS fault, but he could have tried to stop Refa I s'pose...

 

[vacantlook]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

To essentially repost my comments from the scifi.com board about the two chances prior to Morella's prophetic statement, I think the two chances could be:

1. Letting Draal replace Varn instead of taking the position of custodian of the Great Machine on Epsilon 3 himself. Londo said prior to going down to the planet that he knew one of them would not be coming back and that it could be him. Had Londo replaced Varn instead of Draal, Londo would have both been in a position to help them fight against the Shadows as well as not being in a position to be manipulated by the Shadows.

2. Londo having gone along with Refa in the plot to draw away and obliterate the Narn forces while a Centauri battlefleet bombed the Narn homeworld from space is a fairly high profile moment that could be seen as the second possiblity missed. However, Londo having lied about what Emperor Turhan said to him with his dying breath really pushed the Centauri toward war more. Londo could have said that Turhan told him to stop the war with the Narn and it would have carried a strong degree of importance in the Centauri society since it was Turhan's last words; however, Londo chose to further the increase in war aggressions by telling the lie saying that Turhan told them to continue.

 

[Galahad]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

2. Londo having gone along with Refa in the plot to draw away and obliterate the Narn forces while a Centauri battlefleet bombed the Narn homeworld from space is a fairly high profile moment that could be seen as the second possiblity missed. However, Londo having lied about what Emperor Turhan said to him with his dying breath really pushed the Centauri toward war more. Londo could have said that Turhan told him to stop the war with the Narn and it would have carried a strong degree of importance in the Centauri society since it was Turhan's last words; however, Londo chose to further the increase in war aggressions by telling the lie saying that Turhan told them to continue.

Yes, but if he had told the truth in the first place the full blooded Narn/Centauri war would never have started... at least not by his hands.

 

[Nancy]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

1) he must save the eye that cannot see -- now some have stated that they think this is the artifact but if it is one of his last 3 chances how could it be? The artifact epp happened before this

What artifact?

I always thought this to be saving G'Kar, because of his lost eye.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

What artifact?

The artifact in question is "The Eye" seen in the first season episode "Signs and Portents." It's the bejeweled object that Mr. Morden brings back from the raider ship that the first Shadow ship ever seen in the show attacked. Morden brought it back to Londo as an attempt to garner Londo's support.

 

[Fas]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Well, if you guys read the centaury trilogy (considered canon) it mentions something about Morella actually saying "I" instead of "Eye", but i can´t remember much more about it.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Ok then, let's present the statement.

"You must save the I that can not see."

Does that even make sense? Grammatically, it's incorrect, for sure.

 

[Nancy]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Prophecy is not supposed to make sense.

Fas, I think I remember that statement from the Centauri Trilogy. Doesn't the trilogy explain Londo's 3 other chances? I'm going to have to re-read the books.

 

[raisincajuns]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

What about not killing the one who is already dead?? Am I wrong in thinking that it could not have been Sheridan because I believe he failed in the last two of the three chances?

 

[zootle]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

I've always thought that:

"You must save the eye that does not see" refers to G'Kar. Londo must save him as he serves a pivotal role later.

"Do not kill the one who is already dead" is referring to Sheridan, by saving him and Delenn they in turn promise to free Centauri Prime.

"Surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing it will destroy you" refers to Londo's death at the hands of G'Kar (which is why G'Kar must be saved earlier). Londo must die at that point, after saving Sheridan and Delenn, to avoid news of what Londo has done going any further too soon. They must be allowed to escape.

 

[Nancy]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Zootle, I think you got it. Those 3 explanations look the best.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

1. Londo only has to face his greatest fear if he fails to take advantage of his other chances.

2. The prophecy refers to Londo's personal redemption, not necessarily the political or military fortunes of the Centauri people, for whom he risks so much.

3. JMS has explicitly commented on several of these items, but that doesn't stop people from ignoring what he's said and insisting on their own answers.

The "eye that cannot see" is G'Kar's eye, which "fails to see the glory of Cartagia." (JMS - usenet) It cannot be the artifact known as The Eye, because Londo's only contact with that is before the prophecy is given, and we never see or hear about the thing again. It is not clear how saving G'Kar's eye would have changed Londo's destiny, but again, this is a matter of his soul, not the fate of his body. Maybe in intervening to save G'Kar's eye Londo would have pushed Cartagia too far and been executed himself. He at least would have died doing the right thing with no thought of personal gain, or future glory. His death might have led other Centauri nobles to rebel against Cartagia and eventually join the Alliance and free Narn.

"The one who is already dead" is Sheridan. He's the only one to whom this description really applies. (Morden being dead on paper or almost dead on Z'ha'dum really doesn't count.) Londo attempts to follow the prophecy by "not killing" Sheridan. But as soon as Sheridan and Delenn leave the throne room, his Keeper begins to awaken. The Keeper will rescind his secret order freeing the pair, and his earlier command to have them executed will be carried out unless the Keeper can be stopped...

... And the only way to stop the Keeper is to give in to his greatest fear, death at the hands of G'Kar. As things play out the second and third chances are two sides of the same coin. Londo cannot fulfill the second without also fulfilling the third, one more irony in a life full of them.

P.S.

While JMS says that the "eye/I" thing occurred to him while writing the episode, as a extra layer of meaning as it were, what he actually wrote in the script was "eye" and that was primarily what he had in mind. Peter David plays with this dichotomy in the Centauri trilogy - but in a section narrated by Londo in the first person. In other words it is not the omniscient author telling us that the "eye" was really "I" and referred to Londo, it is Londo the character wondering aloud if this might not be the case. But you have to remember that Londo eventually concludes that everything that's happened in the past 50 or so years, including the Earth-Minbar war, is really all about him. This section may be more about Peter David tweaking Londo for his vanity than any serious thought about the meaning of the prophecy. Besides, as I noted above, JMS said that "the eye" is G'Kar's. Since he wrote both the prophecy and the subsequent episodes where it played out, I really can't see any reason to disagree with him.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Nancy]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Sorry Joe, I wasn't aware JMS had told the answers for London's 3 last chances.

 

[zootle]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Sorry Joe, I wasn't aware JMS had told the answers for London's 3 last chances.

Neither was I. But it was amusing to see Joe contradict himself:

1. Londo only has to face his greatest fear if he fails to take advantage of his other chances.

Actually not true. Londo took advantage of not killing the one who is already dead. He released him. By your own admission then this is all he needed to do, but not so. He still has to give in to his greatest fear.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Londo took advantage of not killing the one who is already dead. He released him. By your own admission then this is all he needed to do...

Nice try, but don't sprain something patting yourself on the back just yet -

Read the post again. Londo fails to save "the one who is already dead" and knows he has failed - which pretty much eliminates rescuing Sheridan as one of the things that can redeem him. The Keeper is stirring even as Sheridan and Delenn leave, and Londo knows the inevitable consequences of that. That's the paradox. He ultimately does save the one who is already dead, but the only way he can do it is to face his greatest fear first. If Londo isn't dead by the time Sheridan's ship clears the jumpgate the Keeper, through Londo, will order the ship destroyed. He acheives his second chance for redemption, but only as a by-product of accepting his final chance. There is no contradiction in what I said above.

Regards,

Joe

 

[KoshFan]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

This is an old, old debate, but here are my thoughts on Londo's Five Chances:

I have no real guesses as to the first chance (there are too many choices), but I think lying about Turhan's last words counts as his second.

As to the other three:

1 (we seem to be doing numbers, and who am I to be original and buck the trend?). G'kar's eye. After losing his eye, G'kar has one of his wonderful speeches about how now he can see Londo's true self.

2. I really believe that Morden is the man who is "already dead." Yes, Sheridan qualifies -- and even Refa might, too, if you twist the poisoning thing around -- but Londo kills Morden in furious revenge for Adira's death, and inadvertantly sets off another chain of vengeance that leads to the Drakh holding Centauri Prime hostage. If Londo had passed up on his revenge, if he had negotiated with Morden rather than simply killing him, then he could have spared Centauri Prime immense suffering.

Besides, if it's Sheridan, then his last two chances come simultaneously, and that's not good storytelling.

3. The last chance, I believe, is bowing to the Drakh and allowing himself to be controlled by the Keeper. He fears his loss of power, his loss of independence. (He is willing to risk his life for his people or his cause -- we saw that when he ordered Vir to kill him to spare Centauri Prime from the Vorlons -- so I don't think it's death that he fears most.) He knows that in doing so he will essentially be destroyed as a person, but he does so to save his people. To me, at that point, when he has accepted this fate at the very end of Season Five, he has been saved (G'kar probably recognizes this, and finally is able to forgive). It just takes another fifteen years to play out in full.

Furthermore, as we see in the Centauri Prime trilogy (spoilers) he averts another plot on Sheridan's life well before the meeting on Centauri Prime. I don't think he would ever have killed Sheridan after the Keeper was placed on him. I don't say Sheridan was in no danger, but Londo would have tried anything -- even without the prophecy -- to avert Sheridan's death. So it wasn't really a major turning point, unlike his surrender to the Keeper.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Besides, if it's Sheridan, then his last two chances come simultaneously, and that's not good storytelling.

No, they occur in proximity, but not simultaneously. Joe tried to explain it in the post above. Chance number two to "not kill the one that's already dead" failed. Londo attempted to do just that, to not have Sheridan killed. But when the Keeper began to wake up, he realized he had failed to save Sheridan. If Londo didn't take another action, the Keeper would wake, cause him to countermand his previous efforts to get Sheridan away and off of Centauri Prime. So, at that moment having failed the second chance, he acted on the the third chance: sacrifice his life. If he allowed G'Kar to kill him, it would prevent the Keeper from being able to counteract. In the end, Sheridan was saved only as an indirect result of Londo successfully completing chance number three.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

But Londo had arranged for G'kar to kill him before he realized that the Keeper was waking up ("Let us do it now, while it is asleep..."). A minor point, but I still don't think that saving Sheridan was as significant as killing Morden or submitting to the Keeper.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

But Londo had arranged for G'kar to kill him before he realized that the Keeper was waking up....

Actually, not true. Londo mentioned feeling the Keeper waking up before G'Kar even entered the room. He told Sheridan and Delenn, "Go now. Quickly. You do not have much time. I can feel it beginning to wake up. Hurry. Go on." The two of them then fled the throne room.