Londo's Three Chances

A_M_Swallow · Feb 24, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

Saving the life of the Narn with "The Eye that does not see" leads directly to the following redemptions.

Freeing the Narn Home World - redemption in the eyes of the Narn.

Killing Cartagia - redemption in the eyes of the Centaur nobles.

Saving Centaur Prime from destruction - redemption in the eyes of the people of Centauri.

Blowing up the Shadow ships - redemption in the eyes of the Vorlons.

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Andrew Swallow

[This message has been edited by A_M_Swallow (edited February 24, 2002).]

Joseph DeMartino · Feb 24, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Saving the life of the Narn with "The Eye that does not see" leads directly to the following redemptions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The prophecy doesn't say anything about saving the life of the Narn with "the eye that cannot see", or anybody else's life, for that matter. It says that Londo must save "the eye that does not see." Londo does not save G'Kar's eye, it is plucked out. Hence he fails this chance at redemption.

The prophecy does say that Londo will have to face surrender to his greatest fear knowing it will kill him only "at the last... if you have failed in all the others." Therefore nothing prior to his death at G'Kar's hands can be counted as a success. Again, we're talking about Londo's personal redemption. He is hardly redeemed by abandoning an immoral and illegal occupation of Narn which he himself initiated. If I stop beating you with a baseball bat it is better than if I continued, but it is not a positive act that would in any way make up for my starting to beat you in the first place.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

Jade Jaguar · Feb 24, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

Joe, if we take the prophecy literally, Londo would have to save G'Kar's eye AFTER it was plucked out, since prior to that, it could see. Or Perhaps save the eye socket, if that qualifies as an eye. Since saving the plucked eye makes no sense to me, I think we have to take "The eye that does not see" metaphorically, and then it could indeed mean save G'Kar.

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Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
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jnk5y · Feb 25, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

in No Surrender No Retreat Londo asks G'kar "How is the eye?" G'kar replies "It sees." So that can't be the eye that doesn't see can it? Just wanted to add to the discussion. Discuss amongst yourselves.

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bakana · Feb 25, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

JMS has been Very Coy whenever he was asked about this.

It is very possible that even HE has no idea what the first two prophesies refer to.

After all, he WAS dealing with a Seer.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "You have a chance few others will ever have, Mollari.
You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire that waits for you at the end of your journey. You've already wasted two others.
You must save the eye that does not see.
You must not kill the one who is already dead.
And at the last, you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you.
Now, if you fail all the others, that is your final chance for redemption."

"I .. don't understand."

"The future reveals itself only reluctantly, Ambassador.
Take the sign for what it is.
Look for it when it appears."

"I will, thank you."

Lady Morella and Londo in Babylon 5:"Point of No Return" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note that Lady Morella said the ONE who is already dead, not the MAN.

It could have been a Woman he was supposed to save.
Sheridan's wife qualifies, for instance, because She was Already Dead...

So was Talia Winters.

For that matter, after the Drakh took him, the Regent was also "already dead" by many definitions.

Lots of candidates.
And who knows how many Others we Don't know about??

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

GKarsEye · Feb 25, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

One interpretation about the eye that doesn't see being G'Kars is that the eye doesn't see Cartagia's "splendor" or the proper way to behave. That is, if G'Kar would have sacrificed some of his pride, Cartagia wouldn't have been so annoyed by the defiant stare which gave him the idea of taking it out in the first place.

This part of the prophecy may deal with the fact that Londo incorporated a person being captive and tortured as part of his plan.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

bakana · Feb 25, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

If you assume that "the Eye that does not see" is G'Kar, then the only way to save him would have been to Successfully kill Cartagia.
A FAILED attempt would only have gotten them Both Killed.
And left Cartagia with No Opposition.

------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

Mike G · Feb 25, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Note that Lady Morella said the ONE who is already dead, not the MAN.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Zatrus tells Sheridan that he is the one who will be in "War without end"

That makes it even more likely that it was Sheridan.

[This message has been edited by Mike G (edited February 25, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Joe D said
He is hardly redeemed by abandoning an immoral and illegal occupation of Narn which he himself initiated. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have to disagree on this point even though it doesn't have much to do with the big discussion. Londo didn't initiate it as much as Refa did. Refa was the one with the plan for the swift occupation of Narn. It felt to me that Londo was being dragged into the whole thing, especially the expression on his face from the Centauri Primus. One could also make a case for Morden initiating the whole thing. After all it was Morden who pushed Londo into asking Morden's 'associates' into blasting that Narn Listening outpost that started the whole war.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

Kribu · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Archon:
After all it was Morden who pushed Londo into asking Morden's 'associates' into blasting that Narn Listening outpost that started the whole war.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did he? *Push* Londo into asking that, I mean? Or did he just ask "what do you want?", and let the bitter, angry, disillusioned Londo answer this - as that's where it all started.

No, you can't blame anyone but Londo for this. Morden was just the lucky chance for him, someone who could fulfill Londo's dream to get back the good old glorious (tyranny) days of the mighty Centauri Republic.

The first steps, including blasting the Narn outpost, were Londo's own ideas - or are you saying that he didn't crave the power back then, both for his own sake (to stop being considered a joke) and to regain some imaginary glory for his homeworld, not to mention revenge.

Only later, when he realised that ten thousand people had died because of *his* words and desires, and with Refa ordering the bombing of Narn, did Londo start having regrets - so yeah, I'm not saying he was completely bad, as I am quite sure he had a conscience.

But he *was* the one who started it. Not Morden, not Refa, but Londo himself. After all, he did have a choice.

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net

Joseph DeMartino · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sheridan's wife qualifies, for instance, because She was Already Dead...

So was Talia Winters.

For that matter, after the Drakh took him, the Regent was also "already dead" by many definitions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None of them qualify, for the simple reason that Londo was never in a position where he was about to kill any of them, and the prophecy says, "You must not kill the one who is already dead."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And who knows how many Others we Don't know about?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we don't know about them, they aren't candidates. To make the object of this prophecy someone we never know about, and Londo's restraint in not killing the one referred to is something we never see, that would be a dramatic cheat. JMS is sometimes coy, but he'd never do something this blatantly unfair.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Joe, if we take the prophecy literally, Londo would have to save G'Kar's eye AFTER it was plucked out, since prior to that, it could see.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

G'Kar's eye "offended" Cartagia because it "couldn't see... [his] greatness". That's why it was plucked out. So, obviously, the "not seeing" came before the physical blindness.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>G'kar replies "It sees." So that can't be the eye that doesn't see can it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's G'Kar speaking metaphorically. Let's not get carried away, shall we?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Londo didn't initiate it as much as Refa did.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Kribu's reply covers this one very well. Londo started the Centauri on the road to another war with the Narn, and the eventual occupation of their planet, all by his lonesome. Refa merely brought Londo's initial acts (allying himself with Morden and having the Narn outpost destroyed) to their logical conclusion when Londo lost his nerve.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

Recoil · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

Sometimes Joe, getting people to see the light, no matter how bright it is, is a losing battle.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

bakana · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If we don't know about them, they aren't candidates. To make the object of this prophecy someone we never know about, and Londo's restraint in not killing the one referred to is something we never see, that would be a dramatic cheat. JMS is sometimes coy, but he'd never do something this blatantly unfair. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree.
The Unfulfilled prophesies are immaterial to the Object of that exchange: To set us up for Londo's Death.
JMS likes Red Herrings.
He sprinkles them judiciously through the show to distract us from the Foreshadowing.

JMS also likes to Mislead us.
For our "own good" of course.

JMS waits until we fall in Love with our misconceptions, then he yanks the rug out from under us with the Truth.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Kribu said
Did he? *Push* Londo into asking that, I mean? Or did he just ask "what do you want?", and let the bitter, angry, disillusioned Londo answer this - as that's where it all started. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Joe D said
I think Kribu's reply covers this one very well. Londo started the Centauri on the road to another war with the Narn, and the eventual occupation of their planet, all by his lonesome. Refa merely brought Londo's initial acts (allying himself with Morden and having the Narn outpost destroyed) to their logical conclusion when Londo lost his nerve.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kribu and Joe, you are right in that Londo was bitter and angry, and you are also right in that Morden 'initially' just asked a simple question "what do you want" in which Londo started another war with the Narn.

However the point I disagree with both of you on is how much of it was Londo and how much of it was Morden 'leading' Londo. The best example in the show was when Londo jokingly talked about "wiping the whole Narn homeworld while they were at it." In reply, Morden was serious and said "one thing at a time." To me, Londo never intended for things to go that far. It was moreso Morden *needing* Londo to ask the favors rather than Londo *needing* to ask them. That is why when Londo severed contact, Morden found Refa (back to the whole *needing* someone to ask). When Londo made sure Refa stopped talking to Morden, Morden arranged it so that Londo would dive deeper in anger, despair, and bitterness (by killing the only person he ever truly loved). So you see, the driving force behind everything that happened is Morden (and consequently the Shadows). Londo was the unlucky dolt who happened to be the gateway to everything that Morden (and the Shadows) were striving for, namely galactic warfare, or chaos in simpler terms.

The question remains: is Londo a bad guy for allowing himself to be that gateway. I can only think of a couple of ways in which he could save himself, initially, and not become that gateway. Lying to Morden or trying to ignore Morden (which he tried at first but of couse Morden 'needed' someone, so he persisted).

Another interesting thing to ponder is G'kar. He also tried to ignore Morden at first but then gave in and gave a bitter, angry, disillusioned response (just like Londo). Had Morden chosen G'kar (and the Narn) to be that avenue of destruction. We would be sitting here arguing about G'kar. Is G'kar any less of a "bad" guy than Londo simply because he was lucky enough to have been ignored by Morden and was spared in becoming that gateway.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

frobisher · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Recoil:
Morden doesnt work, because he wasnt dead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was listed as dead when the Icarus was lost, hence all the things that Sheriden said when he was arrested. That'll do for any prophesy...

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Paddy Sinclair

"I think it's an excellent plan. But then, I've been shot through the head on five or six occasions"- Troop Leader Keitel, The Corps

Joseph DeMartino · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>To me, Londo never intended for things to go that far.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, he probably didn't. And a drunk driver doesn't intend to wipe out a family of six, either. But when that's what happens we don't let the drunk off, morally or legally. Morden never "led" Londo anywhere Londo wasn't willing to follow, usually with his eyes open. Even when Morden was deliberately manipulating Londo (as in killing Adira and framing Refa), he depended on Londo reacting as he expected. If Londo had taken time to reflect instead of reflexively striking out in his pain, things might have gone differently. Londo chose his actions, just as the drunk chooses to drink.

In these examples neither Morden nor the bartender is holding a gun to anybody's head and forcing them to behave a certain way. The element of volition is there is both cases. Both men have the chance to say, "No" to their impulses and choose not to continue on a given path. Therefore they are morally responsible for the result, whether intended or not. Londo invited Morden in, and sought to use him for his own purposes. Everything that flows from that one act can ultimately be laid at Londo's doorstep.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

Recoil · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by frobisher:
He was listed as dead when the Icarus was lost, hence all the things that Sheriden said when he was arrested. That'll do for any prophesy...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The prophecy doesnt say:

'The One who was thought to be dead'
or
'The One who was listed as missing'
it says
'The one who IS already dead'

There is only one person in all of B5 who can fit that description. Sheridan, who DIED at Z'Ha'Dum.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

Recoil · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

As is the story of Londo in B5, here is what I think accurately portrays him.

Early in B5 Londo most CERTAINLY chose his own actions.

He CHOSE to contact Morden.
He CHOSE to have him 'take care' of the problem in Quadrent 37' in Chryslias.
Granted, he was horrified as to the result, and thought it was overkill. But after that point, did he stop? No.
He CHOSE to use Morden YET AGAIN in Coming of Shadows, which caused the Narn-Centauri War.
He also CHOSE not to stop things at every opportunity.

At the End of B5 Londo's actions chose him.

The Drakh. He was forced to wear the keeper, or else his planet would be devistated due to Drakh booby-trapping it. Although he didnt want to, he willingly became a slave to the Drakh and had no choice. THOSE actions chose him.

However, those actions chose him because of his prior mistakes early in B5. So while he didnt really chose his actions with the Drakh, he was paying the price for his earlier decisions.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

Commenting on the drunk driver analogy: Once Londo had realized what was happening, he tried to get out and kind of did. Morden turned to Refa to finish the job. Londo realized that he HAD to be involved otherwise even worse things might have resulted. That is the reason that he was involved in it until the end. A drunk driver doesn't go through all of the steps in deciding whether he should drive, what if he hits someone, if someone else might kill that family of six if he isn't out there driving.

Also it is possible that the one is Morden. JMS said not to kill the one who is already dead but as others hae stated, he is known for trying to throw people off. The meaning may not be meant to be taken so literally.

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No one here is exactly what he appears.

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 26, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>He CHOSE to contact Morden.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Morden CHOSE to contact Londo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>He CHOSE to have him 'take care' of the problem in Quadrent 37' in Chryslias. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Morden ASKED Londo if there was anything he could do and pushed the envelope from a passing comment Londo made.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>He CHOSE to use Morden YET AGAIN in Coming of Shadows, which caused the Narn-Centauri War.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Refa BEGGED Londo to use his associates, and Londo plainly stated, "This IS the last time, we are Centauri."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>He also CHOSE not to stop things at every opportunity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. He is to blame for not telling Refa "NO" when Refa asked him to use the Shadows in the Narn-Centauri War, after all he knew the horror of Quadrant 37. After Quadrant 37 is the opportunity he should have chosen to stop everything.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>At the End of B5 Londo's actions chose him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. They chose him because he allowed himself to be the Shadows avenue of destruction and didn't catch wind of it soon enough. Aside from this, I don't see that Londo ever had much choice.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>lovegaribaldi said
A drunk driver doesn't go through all of the steps in deciding whether he should drive, what if he hits someone, if someone else might kill that family of six if he isn't out there driving.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point, this is one of the reasons I didn't like the analogy in the first place.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

Londo's Three Chances

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