Londo's Three Chances

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Londo\'s Three Chances

I recently was watching my B5 episodes again and I was struck by Lady Morella's advice to Londo in 'Point of No Return'. She says that he has three chances left to avoid the fire that awaits him.

1. You must save the eye that does not see.
2. You must not kill the one that is already dead.
3. You must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will kill you.

1. That one makes me think that she meant G'Kar because we know that he has a patch over his eye because he lost it because of that loon Cartagia.
2. This is the one that a new revelation struck me about. I heard someone say that it might be referring to Sheridan, which could very well be right. But I was wondering if maybe it could be Morden. Everyone thought that Morden had died on Z'ha'dum. Once Morden is killed and the Shadow forces are destroyed on Centauri Prime, it is the beginning of the end for the Shadows. Then of course the Shadow's allies return to Centauri Prime and keep it in ruins under the reign of Londo. Let me know what you guys think of that possibility.
3.I am not really sure what Londo's greatest fear was. If we know what it was then it would be easier to decifer the last part of her advice.

I would love to hear everyone's comments on this. Her speech to him was filled with so many things. It is Babylon 5 at its best.

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No one here is exactly what he appears.

 

[Elizar]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

Here's my take on the whole thing:

1) Save G'kar from Cartagia

2) Don't kill Sheridan

3) Let G'kar kill you when you are emperor and controlled by the Keeper

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-With every light is born a shadow-

 

[whitestar90]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

Well this was covered alittle bit by the Centauri trilogy books

The eye might not be "eye but "I" meaning Londo saving himself- which he failed to do

The one who is dead was Sheriden because only sheriden and the alliance could save his people..

and the last one was giving himself to GKar knowing that it will kill him....

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957
Babylon 5 freegame-I've Found Her

 

[Morden]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

So does this mean Londo was redeemed?
Or did Elric's prophecy of the billions of victims screaming Londo's name catch up to Londo?

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"Ink on a page!" -Refa describing the moral depths of a treaty.
"Life is life, whether it's wrapped in skin, scales or feathers." -Dr. Franklin

 

[Elizar]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

He partially redeemed himself. Instead of having billions of victims, he has millions!

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-With every light is born a shadow-

 

[Loadhan]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

Yeah, I agree alot with the last post "millions instead of billions". If Londo had not redeemed himself at the end (or earlier when he

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> helped Vir lead a rebel movement against Durla and the Drakh </font></td></tr></table>

billions would have died for

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> with Sheriden and Delenn dead and himself still alive and controlled by the Drakh, the Centauri fleet would have attacked the ISA, the ISA would have attacked the Centauri, and the resulting war would probably have been worse than any we've seen save a Shadow War. Most of the 40 billion of the Centuari population is off of Centauri Prime and that planet was the only large planetary target of the ISA in 2262 and the only target the Drakh nuke mines. If a full scale war with a massive fleet of advanced Centauri ships broke out with the ISA (especially after all the hatred that had been spewing between the two for nearly two decades) many more would have died. Londo helped to prevent that. Yay Londo!

</font></td></tr></table>



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[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

What do you all think about the possibility of Morden being the one that she is referring to as the one who is already dead?

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No one here is exactly what he appears.

 

[Recoil]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lovegaribaldi:
1. You must save the eye that does not see.
2. You must not kill the one that is already dead.
3. You must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will kill you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok here it is. Some of this was posted above, but wasn't %100 correct as I can tell.

1. You are right, it is GKar. And it does mean EYE not 'I'. Taken right out of the Lurkers guide from JMS Speaks:

Why didn't Londo try to save G'Kar's eye?
Yeah...would've been nice if Londo had at least tried to do something about the eye that did not see Cartagia's splendor....

So that was it. He let Cartagia take out G'Kar's Eye and missed his first chance.

2. Yep Sheridan. He 'died' at Z'Ha'Dum. In WWE Londo was supposed to have him killed. He acted like he was going to in front of hte Drakh, but didnt kill him. Instead he let them both go free. So it looks like he accomplished #2.

3. Yep, allowed himself to die. Basically he let G'Kar kill him, knowing he would die, but did so in order to save Sheridan, and his people. An act of sacrifice. He accomplished #3 too.

As for the fire that awaited him at the end of his journey, she did say it was his OWN PERSONAL redemption. I tend to think of the fire as hell, and by doing the last 2 things he saved his soul so to speak. The Centauri trilogy books seem to reflect the same thing.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

[This message has been edited by Recoil (edited February 17, 2002).]

 

[Kraig]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lovegaribaldi:
What do you all think about the possibility of Morden being the one that she is referring to as the one who is already dead?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Morden was not already dead, only thought to be dead. If she had said "You must not kill the one who is thought to be dead," then I might consider Morden as one possibility.

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Remember dear readers, you heard it here first. Off the record, on the Q.T., and very hush-hush - Danny DeVito as Sid Hudgens in L.A. Confidential

 

[Kribu]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

The "I" instead of "eye" always seemed like a forced explanation to me. Probably because English isn't my first language, just as it wasn't Londo's - it's hard for me to believe that the words would be the same in Centauri.

BTW, did Lady Morella give her advice to Londo in English or was it another one of those "they are really speaking in their own tongue, we're just hearing it in English" things? I think they were alone in the room, yes? Wouldn't make sense for her to speak English.

In any case, I also guess that it was just an idea Londo may have had, it doesn't mean that whatever he was thinking was actually correct.

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net

 

[Várzea]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

I'M NOT SAYING I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU GUYS, but Londo achieved redemption when he finally had the guts to say he was sorry for what he's done in the past, when he is about to die from a heart atack. That redemption was what gave him the strength to endure and acomplish his other feats. His greatest fear was having to say he was sorry, wasn't it?

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If you drink wine, you should be able to enjoy the hangover or learn from it, if you can't do that, dont drink wine.

 

[joev5638]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

I'm afraid that despite great misgivings caused by the words of JMS and the language question of whether "I" and "eye" would sound the same in Centauri as they do in English, I have to agree with the "I" interpretation. Londo accomplished ALL THREE.

He *DID* save himself. He saved himself from believing that he had no choice but to do as he was ordered. As Lady Morella said, "There is always choice...As long as you understand that..."

"The one that is already dead" was Sheridan.

"Your greatest fear" is a two-parter - first, G'Kar, and second, to the fact that Londo would no longer be in control. As Morden said, Londo would take the position of watching over the Shadow colonization because he was afraid of what someone else might do in his place. Leaving things to the universe to let it work things out on its own was terrifying to Londo - to leave it in the hands of his worst enemy, a man who looked forward to the day when the Centauri had been exterminated and their "bones carved into little flutes for Narn children," a man who had suffered at his hand - well - that's extreme. But he did it.

I can't wait until Dark Archon gets into this thread. He is completely convinced that Londo ISN'T a bad guy. And when you get right down to it - is he, or isn't he? The line tends to fade when you look at it long enough.



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Joe Vancil
joev@joev.com

"All right, fine; you look for them. Me? I'm going down there, and maybe I'll bust some heads, and maybe they'll bust mine, but nobody sells out my people like this. Nobody."

 

[Várzea]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

OOoops!! This thought just stroke me when i sent my last message!

His greatest fear indeed was having to say he was sorry, but to G'kar!!!
Only doing that, G'kar would forgive him and then they would become "friends"(

) so G'kar could kill him later. (God, that sounded terribly funny

) Becoming friends with a narn already is a fear to a centauri, but Londo knew where that "friendship" would lead. Death and final redemption (aren't those the same thing?)

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If you drink wine, you should be able to enjoy the hangover or learn from it, if you can't do that, dont drink wine.

 

[Lord Refa]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

anyone thought about the first two options, the ones Londo had already wasted when he talks to Lady Morella?

The first I think was during the Earth-Minbari war, when he orders an attack on 'arms shipment', when it really was the peace talk between Sheridan and Lenonn. When Lady Senna says to him the Centauri had nothing to do with that war, Londo replies: "I know my sins dear lady, and the price I will eventually pay for them" (see In The Beginning)

The second I believe had something to do with signing up with Morden. In ITB he asked to the young boy 'What do you want?', he answers 'Tell me a story'. To this answer Londo replies: "You did far better with that question than I did"


As always with JMS, he leaves all the hints we need in the episodes.

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"I don't watch TV. It’s a cultural wasteland filled with inappropriate metaphors and an unrealistic portrayal of life created by the liberal media-elite."

 

[Recoil]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joev5638:
I'm afraid that despite great misgivings caused by the words of JMS and the language question of whether "I" and "eye" would sound the same in Centauri as they do in English, I have to agree with the "I" interpretation. Londo accomplished ALL THREE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok,

Did you not even read my post up there? It fits the description of the first event. And what's more JMS himself dropped that HUGE hint in the moderated newsgroup, which is posted in the Lurkers Guide as well. For those of you following along at home, I will paste it again:

Why didn't Londo try to save G'Kar's eye?
JMS: Yeah...would've been nice if Londo had at least tried to do something about the eye that did not see Cartagia's splendor....

Yea that pretty much spells it out for those who were wondering.

And he did have three chances. He missed the first one, as listed directly above, but DID accomplish the other 2, and according to the Centauri trilogy, he DID avoid the fire at the end of his journey...


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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

 

[Kribu]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

He didn't actually have to accomplish all three of the remaining chances to be redeemed in the end, did he?

Of course, it might have helped, had he started earlier, but by achieving the last two, he still redeemed himself.

As for whether Londo is a 'good' or 'bad' guy - there were moments, no, whole years, when I hated him passionately, and yet he was the one I cried for in the end. The perfect tragic hero, IMHO.

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net

 

[channe]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

I like to think that when aliens are talking to one another, they use their own language, and when another race comes in, they use English, which was once said to be the language of commerce.

You know, like when the diplomat from France leans over and talks to his aide in French and then conducts the rest of the deal in English.

Or when two Hispanic ladies are chattering away in Spanish in line at Wal-Mart, and then turn and talk to the cashier in English.

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "Last one to kill a bad guy buys the beer." -lost in space

 

[Recoil]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
He didn't actually have to accomplish all three of the remaining chances to be redeemed in the end, did he?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No he didnt. She told him he had three chances, not that he had to accomplish all three. He did get 2 out of 3, and from the ending of the Cenaturi Trilogy, he did avoid his 'firey fate' and found peace (in the afterlife of sorts).

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>He let Cartagia take out G'Kar's Eye <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, he did take me out. It was fun. We got a little sushi, shot some pool, witnessed a couple of disembowlings, participated in an orgy... all in all, a pleasant evening.


We have to keep in mind that prophecy is very "iffy," and it is filtered through Morella's natural subjectivity.

She said he had three chances to save himself from redemption- this means that doing one of the three would be enough.

I would also guess that the chances for redemption would take place after the prophecy was spoken, otherwise it wouldn't be prophecy, it would be fortune telling. And from a dramatical point of view, it gives the audience something to look forward to and provides a little foreshadowing.

I am convinced that the "Eye" thing is G'Kar. First of all, the "I" explanation is just too lame. Bad pun *shudder*. Second of all, there is the quote that Recoil mentioned. Third, and most important, is the dramatic angle: they made a really big deal about Londo letting Cartagia take out the eye.

The second thing, about killing who is already dead, is Sheridan. I would not say it could be Morden, because how can someone redeem themselves in anyway be saving him? Besides, he's only a supporting character

. Londo freeing Sheridan and Delenn is major point in the story arc and it coincides with the prophecy.

Londo's "greatest fear" then was probably surrendering to his greatest enemy and competitor. Someone mentioned that his greatest fear may have been apologising (that ep where he had a heart attack), thus surrendering his pride. Possible, but it doesn't sit well in the story.

The way I see it, Londo's last moments saw him doing everything right for a change. Admitting he was wrong by freeing Delenn and Sheridan, allowing a Narn to kill him, and helping his once bumbling nobody of an assistant take over.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[frobisher]

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

Weren't these very much a case of do one, and you needn't do the others?

So you've got the "Eye/I" thing (jms has hinted that there are a few events that could fit this, not just G'Kar's eye...), not killing the one who is already dead, and surrendering to his fate.

Sheriden can't be the dead man for the simple reason that it still required the last sacrifice by Londo to to gain his "redemption", without it, Sheriden would have been recaptured etc, and the Drakh would still have had control.

Morden however, would work in this context. With him about, the entire Drakh thing might not have been the issue it became (and after all, Morden went down screaming about allies and vengeance...).

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Paddy Sinclair

"I think it's an excellent plan. But then, I've been shot through the head on five or six occasions"- Troop Leader Keitel, The Corps