Long live the Corps

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 12, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Jnk5y wrote:

what would ya'll do with the telepaths if it was your decision. Would you let them run around free or would you still go with a program like the corp? Or do you have a different idea... do tell<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would choose the Minbari way. Let everyone live as they want -- as far as they respect others. To clarify issues, I would specify a new human right -- the right to be judged basing on deeds, not thoughts.

Privacy would have to be respected. Violations of telepathic nature could be investigated with the help of other telepaths. Attacks of telepathic nature could be defended against by other telepaths. Telepaths should be fully involved in all matters. Even in gambling. Naturally, every casiono should hire a telepathic security guard to prevent cheating.

One should never create closed and authoritarian organisations like Psi Corps. Some occasions would require organisations to hire telepaths for special duties. These professions should be carefully balanced and regulated.

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1. Law enforcement, military and intelligence services -- protecting confidential information against intrusion.

2. Medicine -- diagnosis and retreiving critical information from people unconscious or unable to express themselves.

3. Private business -- again, protecting information.

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Even if you fear telepathic intrusion, there should be no reason to fear telepaths. For every telepath willing to attack someone, a well-balanced society should have two telepaths willing to defend (or investigate the attack).

If secrets are important, their holders should ensure that they have telepaths to defend their secrets. Telepaths choose their loyalty just like others. They have concepts of right and wrong, similarities and differences, misunderstandings and conflicts. They are equally likely to betray an unjustified cause, or yield to temptations.

People are balanced with people. This practise is as old as humanity, and very simple. If you fear hackers, hire a computer security expert. Naturally he or she will have full access to your systems -- and not use it for harm. Due to trust, loyalty, morals and a sufficient salary.

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One matter would have to be avoided with special care. There should be no conflict between telepaths and mundanes. Special emphasis would be needed... for a transitional period of some centuries.

Because in a few centuries, the playing field would level itself -- via natural means. Telepath genes would spread and dissolve in the population. It would no longer be a rare privilege, just an intriguing and fairly common talent. And from time to time, there would be very talented individuals. Nothing unusual, nothing to be feared.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 12, 2002).]

Elizar · Feb 12, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jnk5y:
what would ya'll do with the telepaths if it was your decision. Would you let them run around free or would you still go with a program like the corp? Or do you have a different idea... do tell

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would have a Psi Corps for those who wish to join and sharpen their skills for a career. But for those who don't want to join for reason's like Ivonova's mother, there could be monthly mind check's to look for "wrong-doings".

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-With every light is born a shadow-

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 12, 2002

At the time I wrote the reply saying the Narns probably killed their own telepaths, I had forgotten that Garibaldi had found that G'Quon and the Mindwalkers had driven away the Shadows. This means the Shadows did notice the Narn telepaths and probably took steps to deal with them. In light of being reminded, I subscribe to the opinion that the Shadows had someting to do with the extermination of the telepaths. But the Shadows did not act alone, I believe the Narns still had a big part in destroying many of their own telepaths. Here is why.

Normal Narns could have killed telepaths because it doesn't take much for a normal to realize he is being scanned. Any mistake any Narn telepath could have made (even a 1000 years ago) could have sealed their fate. I also don't believe that the Shadows are fully responsible because G'Kar knew about the darkness yet never mentioned word one or even the idea about them being responsible for the death of his races telepaths. Some people have also said that a systematic eradication (one only the Shadows are capable of) of the telepath genes in the Narn population had to have happened because the genes haven't produced a telepathic Narn to date. I remember G'kar saying something along the lines that the Narn potential for telepaths still exists, its just not strong enough to produce a Narn telepath. That is why he asked Lyta to donate some of her own genetic material to the regime. If there weren't the slightest remnants, genetic or otherwise, of Narn telepaths, Lyta's genes wouldn't help. The fact that the potential for telepaths exists among Narns discredits the idea of a systematic eradication even at the genetic level. So once again this lends itself to the idea that Narns had a big part in the extermination of their own telepaths.

Another point I'd like to make off the Narn issue is that it seems as though everyone believes that the Vorlons are the sole reason that telepaths exist in the universe among the younger races. Do people think this because of the telepath trilogy? Since I haven't read all of it, I'm wondering why this inference gets made all the time.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

bakana · Feb 13, 2002

One thing people seem to be forgetting about Shadow Tech is that it is ALIVE.
The Technomages get most of their abilities from a Secondary Nervous system that is introduced into their bodies.
That secondary system IS the "Shadow Tech".

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td> And, as we saw in the Technomage Trilogy, that secondary nervouse system is Extracted from living beings, killing them in the process.</td></tr></table>

So, since the Shadow Tech is Alive, we have no reason to believe it cannot be Inherited.
If the Shadows wish it to be.

Also, there are several very convincing pieces of evidence that point to the Shadows being Very Strong telepaths & telekinetics.
They have the abilities.
Their servants, the Drakh also have them.
They just seem to prefer to have the Younger Races develop Other abilities first.

And, due to arrogance, they don't Use these abilities at several critical points when they would have been a lot better off if they had.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 13, 2002

Some of Shadow tech is alive... and some not. Some is created at the expense of beings, and some grows on minerals. It is possible both ways.

One way was just remarkably quicker and cheaper. Given that most of them had little respect for the lives of younger races, they chose the cheap way. Using living beings.

You can be relatively sure they *could* do it the other way. For one simple reason: they developed their tech long before the younger races appeared. They modeled it basing on living beings. Just like natural life can consume a variety of foods, Shadowtech too should be able to grow on various materials.

If you can build something of natural cells twisted to consume their host, then you can also build it of artificial cells in a harmless manner. The only difference: plants grow slower than animals. Hence the kind of Shadowtech which fed on living beings was quicker and cheaper to grow. They erred and considered it efficient, failing to understand the harm this approach did.

Besides, you can hardly build planetkillers of living beings. There would never be enough material. Hence we may conclude that some Shadow technology can successfully grow on mineral substrates. It simply requires an artificial food chain, with lower levels of the food chain doing the pre-processing.

The fact that Shadow vessels, technomage implants and the Eye required someone to lose their personality or die... was not inevitable. The Shadows chose to build their tech in this manner. It was the result of an obsession gone too far. They could have built their vessels, implants and other systems without living beings, probably even with better quality.

They could have tried to create diversity without loss, competition without irrepariable damage. But they chose wrongly and did what they did.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 13, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If there weren't the slightest remnants, genetic or otherwise, of Narn telepaths, Lyta's genes wouldn't help.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There might be another explanation. Lyta's genes could fill in a gap, provide the part that was destroyed... thus completing the set of genes needed for telepathy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...it seems as though everyone believes that the Vorlons are the sole reason that telepaths exist in the universe among the younger races.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Granted, telepathy could appear by accident. But it would be a very big accident. It would also have to appear at the right time -- after the beings in question have become sentient tool-users. Otherwise it might (arguably) direct evolution to a path which does not favour tools or sentience.

At most, natural telepathy could appear in a couple of species... not hundreds. Mass appearance of telepathy can only be attributed to someone figuring out how to create it artificially.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Lennier said
There might be another explanation. Lyta's genes could fill in a gap, provide the part that was destroyed... thus completing the set of genes needed for telepathy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you say part of the gene that was destroyed, do you mean a specific sequence on the DNA helix? And if so, how can you be sure that Narn anatomy and physiology, especially at the genetic level, work the same way as Human. Genes can lay dormant until activated and can mutate any number of ways. My theory suggests that while the gene wasn't destroyed it's activator was suppressed, it needs a catalyst such as the one that Lyta would provide. Your theory may suggest that part of the physical, tangible structure of the gene was destroyed and some how Lyta's genetic material will replace that part. Just wanted you to clarify your point a bit more.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>At most, natural telepathy could appear in a couple of species... not hundreds. Mass appearance of telepathy can only be attributed to someone figuring out how to create it artificially.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point, I agree with you. I knew that the Vorlons were probably responsible for the majority of telepaths. In the episode "Z'Ha'Dum", Morden said that the Vorlons grew telepaths on a hundred worlds. But it would be a stretch to believe they the sole reason responsible for telepathy in the galaxy.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Dark Archon wrote:

My theory suggests that while the gene wasn't destroyed it's activator was suppressed, it needs a catalyst such as the one that Lyta would provide. Your theory may suggest that part of the physical, tangible structure of the gene was destroyed and some how Lyta's genetic material will replace that part. Just wanted you to clarify your point a bit more.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It could be that way too.

I have imagined that "the telepath gene" is actually a complex of related genes. Let us imagine that there are ten of them, and many have different versions. Some are critical to having any telepathic ability, some direct and modify its nature and strength.

Al Bester might have 8 of 10 genes, and pretty powerful copies of them. Susan Ivanova might have 6 of 10, and less powerful versions. And a Narn might have equally many... but miss one gene which is crucial to the whole complex. Because the Shadows targeted that gene, and every Narn having that gene, no matter if telepath or mundane, died.

It could be an activator... or it could produce some intermediate substance needed to make the system work. But it had to be crucial, and as Narn telepaths died, I believe it was not deactivated. Any cell having it was literally attacked.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 13, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Lennier said
It could be an activator... or it could produce some intermediate substance needed to make the system work. But it had to be crucial, and as Narn telepaths died, I believe it was not deactivated. Any cell having it was literally attacked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with most of your analogy, but you say that any cell having this crucial component would be attacked. *ALL* cells in an organism have *ALL* of the genes that organism possesses. So by attacking the cells that contain this crucial component, you are attacking every cell. A better way of saying it would be that the Shadowtech attacked every cell where that particular gene was expressed. With the presumption that you believe that this is an ongoing process of the Shadowtech killing off these cells generation after generation of Narn; I ask how would Lyta help.

A discussion about Babylon 5 leads to an indepth analysis of genetic structure and function, don't ya just love this show.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

Elizar · Feb 13, 2002

Do you guys think that the Narns managed to create telepaths from the DNA from Lyta and other telepaths?

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-With every light is born a shadow-

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Dark Archon wrote:

With the presumption that you believe that this is an ongoing process of the Shadowtech killing off these cells generation after generation...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is where you got me wrong. I was speaking of cells as viruses work on cellular level. They don't care about beings. If the cells are suitable, they will infect.

But I believe it happened *once*, and lead to the death of all Narn telepaths, and some Narns who were not telepathic (but unlucky enough to carry the gene). After running out of targets, the virus disappeared.

Therefore by studying the genome of Lyta, the Narn could pinpoint the missing gene. It could be reintroduced and after some centuries, Narn telepaths would be quite common.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Elizar wrote:

Do you guys think that the Narns managed to create telepaths from the DNA from Lyta and other telepaths?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that in the fullness of time... they eventually succeeded.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

joev5638 · Feb 14, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
This is where you got me wrong. I was speaking of cells as viruses work on cellular level. They don't care about beings. If the cells are suitable, they will infect.

But I believe it happened *once*, and lead to the death of all Narn telepaths, and some Narns who were not telepathic (but unlucky enough to carry the gene). After running out of targets, the virus disappeared.

Therefore by studying the genome of Lyta, the Narn could pinpoint the missing gene. It could be reintroduced and after some centuries, Narn telepaths would be quite common.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lennier,

Quite logical, but I can't buy into it for two reasons.

First, some bit of the telepathic gene had to be left within the Narn race, or G'Kar would not have been able to successfully use the "dust" in the episode, "Dust To Dust." Given the explanation of how dust works from that episode, if all traces of the gene were gone, the dust would have had no effect on G'Kar.

Second, from the episode "Confessions and Lamentations," Dr. Franklin points out that viruses don't just disappear because they've run out of targets. Eventually, the virus would re-surface.

The bood "The Shadow Within" gives a more plausible solution:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td> Narn telepaths were wiped out by Shadow technology similar to "the mouse" that Anna was experimenting with. This would destroy MANY - but not all - leaving open the possibility that the Narns finished the job for the Shadows, which is more consistent with G'Kar's disgusted reaction in "Dust To Dust."
</td></tr></table>

Joe

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bakana · Feb 14, 2002

The evidence indicates that Telepathy is NOT a GENE, but a complex of Several Genes.
Otherwse, we wouldn't be seeing as much Variation in levels of talent.
The most likely explanation is that the Vorlon didn't want the talent to just suddenly appear in thousands of people all at once.
If it DID, someone would be sure to do a statistic profile and discover that all the first generation telepaths were Adopted "abandoned at birth" babies.
Way too much of a clue.

Instead, they'd make sure the gene complex was a dominant so that it would manifest in people who received it from even One parent, then plant the various components of the Gene Complex in a nice selection of babies and allow them to spread through the general population for a few hundred years.
Eventually, more and more kids would be born with larger and larger chunks of the entire complex.

You could also suspect that it might be spread over several chromosomes, just to make it more difficult to map.
Depending on whether the Vorlons were worried about some race trying to tamper with their work.
Like PsyCorps, perhaps.

------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

joev5638 · Feb 14, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:
The evidence indicates that Telepathy is NOT a GENE, but a complex of Several Genes.
Otherwse, we wouldn't be seeing as much Variation in levels of talent.
The most likely explanation is that the Vorlon didn't want the talent to just suddenly appear in thousands of people all at once.
If it DID, someone would be sure to do a statistic profile and discover that all the first generation telepaths were Adopted "abandoned at birth" babies.
Way too much of a clue.

Instead, they'd make sure the gene complex was a dominant so that it would manifest in people who received it from even One parent, then plant the various components of the Gene Complex in a nice selection of babies and allow them to spread through the general population for a few hundred years.
Eventually, more and more kids would be born with larger and larger chunks of the entire complex.

You could also suspect that it might be spread over several chromosomes, just to make it more difficult to map.
Depending on whether the Vorlons were worried about some race trying to tamper with their work.
Like PsyCorps, perhaps.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bakana,
From "Dark Genesis,"

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td> Actually, that's exactly how the appearance of telepathy happened, and was tracked down, though - a number of adults all going missing in Antarctica during a particular time period. That's what Natasha Alexander's profile showed. The genetic marker found by Alice Kimbrell Crawford showed almost immediately after the discovery of telepathy that it was genetically engineered rather than a natural mutation. And that marker always came from the mother's side, hence most telepaths taking the matriarchal (is that a word?) name. </td></tr></table>

Joe

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