Mark Oshiro watches Babylon 5

[Karajorma]

The comment section is very strange. Quite a few people on there seemed to agree with the premise that you can't be racist to a white person and took exception with JMS having the view that you definitely could.



But yes, I tend to read the comments from the people new to the show first.

 

[KoshFan]

The comment section is very strange. Quite a few people on there seemed to agree with the premise that you can't be racist to a white person and took exception with JMS having the view that you definitely could.

Not to derail this thread, but for future reference: almost every argument along those lines is rooted in having different definitions of the word "racism" and not really realizing it. And now, back on topic!

From Oshiro's review of "Hunter, Prey":

I hate asking this, but: When will the other shoe drop?

Which one? B5 essentially drops the entire JC Penny's shoe department, over time.

 

[Karajorma]

Well the reason discussions of racism came up was because they seemed to feel that Sheridan and Sinclair were far too hard on G'Kar in season 1 and 2. That they should have tried to understand that the Narns were the victims of Centauri occupation and therefore they should be forgiven for their attitude towards the Centauri.



Personally I feel that although I understand the Narn point of view, my sympathy for them is somewhat lowered by the fact that we know they want genocide against the Centauri and that they've done things like try to allow Deathwwalker to escape justice.

 

[KoshFan]

Yeah. The Narn response is both understandable and unwise. It's the difference between "By any means necessary" and "Kill Whitey".

 

[Looney]

Yeah. The Narn response is both understandable and unwise. It's the difference between "By any means necessary" and "Kill Whitey".

Yes anyone who thinks Sheridan and Sinclair were hard on the Narn is not paying attention. Both always tried to include the Narn and both had to deal with obstacles and threats the Narn created.

And I don't want to get into the subject of racism, but saying you can't be racist to a white person is one of the most racist things I've ever heard.

KoshFan nailed it right here

almost every argument along those lines is rooted in having different definitions of the word "racism" and not really realizing it.

 

[Karajorma]

One thing this rewatch is really highlighting is how fucked up Babylon 5 is. In the last six episodes we have seen


- A character forced to keep a secret that results in several planets being enslaved.
- An entire race get wiped out by plague.
- A main character have her complete personality wiped and permanently replaced by a completely new one designed to spy on the other main characters and report back to a totalitarian government.
- A civilisation get invaded and forced to unconditionally surrender to a government that believes that the death of 500 innocents is fitting punishment for the murder of any of their citizens. We know that this will lead to eugenics and death camps.
- Two of the main characters get tortured by Jack the Ripper.
- The signing of a non-aggression pact between the humans and concentration camp loving aliens unironically using the same language that Neville Chamberlain used when signing a pact with Nazi Germany.
- The revelation that an alien race has come to Earth multiple times in the past to screw with our religions in order to make us believe that they are beings of light.

As funny as it is to watch Mark saying WTF all the time, it's in no way an overreaction!

Come to think of it, B5 might be one of the most fucked up shows that was ever on TV. If you wrote those plotlines down alongside those from a season of Black Mirror and showed them both to someone who had seen neither, they'd have a hard time saying which show was more fucked up!

But worse, if you watch more than one episode of Black Mirror, you know what you are getting yourself into. But to those who started watching B5, it just seems like a fun little Star Trekish style show with "Aliens of the Week" and the occassional moral lesson about how there is no such thing as a "pure human" or how strange haired aliens should be able to marry for love. And then once you've started watching it regularly and are hooked, it goes all horrible on you!

 

[KoshFan]

From his review of "Comes the Inquisitor":

You know, I didn’t really think about this until the episode was over, but this all demonstrated to me just how messed up the Vorlons can be.

He's figuring it out.

With that attitude in mind, I can't wait to see what he has to say about "Fall of Night". Fortunately I won't have to wait long!

 

[KoshFan]

Here are Mark's predictions for Season 3.

Season 3 Predictions

Season 3 will largely focus on two things: first, the coming of the Shadows and the revelation of their agenda.
And two: the growth of the Night Watch / Ministry of Peace and how they affect Babylon 5.
At some point, Sheridan will openly defy Earth in his running of the station.
And Babylon 5 will probably go rogue at some point, too.
Ivanova will not pursue a romantic relationship this season because she’s been burned twice now. (GIVE MY SWEET SUSAN SOME HAPPINESS SOON, PLEASE.)
Dr. Franklin’s use of stims will come up this season.
Garibaldi will directly challenge the Night Watch and try to ban them from the station.
He’ll lose.
In at least one episode, Londo will try to distance himself from the Shadows and his actions.
He’ll fail at that, too.
I think we’ll see Z’ha’dum at some point.
The big reveal at the end of the season will be the war with the Shadows.
Delenn will meet with the Gray Council at least once.
Delenn and Sheridan will start a relationship.
Vir will turn on Londo by the end of the season.
(Bonus points if it is with help from Lennier.)
We will see Sinclair at least once.
I’m not ready.
Ivanova will continue to be my favorite.

I’m cheating with that last one I DON’T CARE.

He pretty much nailed it this time! I think he's learning.

 

[Karajorma]

What's interesting is how wrong he is at the same time. I suspect he still thinks the Shadow War will end somewhere in Season 5. It's amazing how wrong almost everyone is about that the first time they watch the show.

 

[KoshFan]

My ex was certainly stunned by that. (We're still working our way through the show together -- we watched "Racing Mars" last week.)

 

[Looney]

So much traffic, where has it gone? :wtf:

 

[Karajorma]

The Severed Dreams video was great. So much going on in that episode.

 

[Jan]

Love it when he runs across the episodes that pack two hours of story into one! Just read his post on "Ceremonies of Light and Dark", one of my faves.

 

[Karajorma]

Ah, the War Without End videos were a joy to watch. He was so happy to see Sinclair back at first and then just watching him realise how all the stuff he'd seen two seasons back slots into place in this one.

 

[Springer]

I'm surprised he, and the people writing in his comments, didn't like Sic Transit Vir more. Though I do wonder how closely they are paying attention to the show sometimes - there seemed some confusion among them over who was really the target of the Narn assassins, and what Vir's plan really was.

Ditto, none of them picked up that we'd already heard about how the Minbari War started, with the misunderstanding about the open gun ports, back in Legacies, yet they're all treating it as though it's new information in A Late Delivery from Avalon.

 

[Karajorma]

I'm pretty sure that Legacies only mentions that the war started due to an accident. In fact they even see the Minbari coming in with their gun ports open as a sign of hostility and power up the defence grid (Which makes it seem like Sinclair and Garibaldi might not even know how the war started!).


Then again people having no idea of major events in the B5 universe is fairly commonplace. Despite that footage of how Sheridan took out the BlackStar was supposedly broadcast by "every major planetary network for the next three days." Ivanova didn't know how it was done. And apparently the reappearance of B4 was somehow covered up so well that John "I collect secrets" Sheridan hadn't heard of it despite it meaning that 2000 people suddenly returned from the dead.

 

[Springer]

I'm pretty sure that Legacies only mentions that the war started due to an accident. In fact they even see the Minbari coming in with their gun ports open as a sign of hostility and power up the defence grid (Which makes it seem like Sinclair and Garibaldi might not even know how the war started!).


Then again people having no idea of major events in the B5 universe is fairly commonplace. Despite that footage of how Sheridan took out the BlackStar was supposedly broadcast by "every major planetary network for the next three days." Ivanova didn't know how it was done. And apparently the reappearance of B4 was somehow covered up so well that John "I collect secrets" Sheridan hadn't heard of it despite it meaning that 2000 people suddenly returned from the dead.

My apologies, you are quite correct. Thinking about it now the cruiser having its gun ports open was a sign of respect for Bremner. Ugh, maybe I'm the one who should pay closer attention! Sincere apologies to all on the MarkWatches website, I must have been having a bad morning or something when I wrote that.

And yeah, regarding people in B5 having no idea of major events: another one would be in The Gathering when Lyta asks why it's called Babylon 5.

 

[Karajorma]

Well I have seen the commenters on Mark Watches make some fairly major errors. What's really annoying is when you can't correct them because it's spoilers to explain. I'm literally waiting for War Without End II to play so I can take down some major misconceptions about Delenn.

 

[Springer]

Well I have seen the commenters on Mark Watches make some fairly major errors. What's really annoying is when you can't correct them because it's spoilers to explain. I'm literally waiting for War Without End II to play so I can take down some major misconceptions about Delenn.

I suppose you and I can now watch the show with hindsight, whereas many of the first time watchers are seeing it as we did all those years ago. I mean, when we watched the show back in the 90s, who among us thought the Shadow War would end up being about ideology rather than conquest? So I can forgive them for having false expectations or a certain mindset about a character. Even the person who can't stand Delenn, the reasons she has for not liking Delenn are all issues that were raised in the show by other characters too, that she was being presumptuous believing in prophecy – which as you say, when we find out that the prophecy really came from Sinclair/Valen, changes a lot about Delenn's role. And we don't see Delenn's full back story until Atonement and In the Beginning. Though I have to say, I don't think anything will change that particular commentators mind about Delenn now - such a u-turn would mean admitting she was wrong in her criticisms.

What I find really interesting is their reaction. They take things that the characters do very seriously, almost personally, for example Londo. They're much more invested in hating a character for the things they have done than I get the impression many of us 'old timers' ever were. Another example is their dislike of the tone of Sic Transit Vir because it discussed genocide while still having comedic elements. I wonder how they will take to the redemptive part of Londo's arc, or to the fact that Bester does not get his comeuppance in the show.

 

[Jan]

What I find really interesting is their reaction. They take things that the characters do very seriously, almost personally, for example Londo. They're much more invested in hating a character for the things they have done than I get the impression many of us 'old timers' ever were. Another example is their dislike of the tone of Sic Transit Vir because it discussed genocide while still having comedic elements. I wonder how they will take to the redemptive part of Londo's arc, or to the fact that Bester does not get his comeuppance in the show.

It's been a while since the last but I've seen quite a few people over the years who refused to acknowledge Londo's trying for redemption. And they ended up hating Delenn for her part in the E/M war, too.