Matrix Revolutions Kicks Ass! (spoilers)

[Decal]

Ah the christ figure and mesiah symbolism is a bit prevelent in the 1st and in the 3rd movie. Need to go thru the 2nd one to get little bits. And just reconize the 1st one since had a damn english teacher who dose the whole symbolic taking apart of it and even was comparing it to One Flew Over the Cuckoos nest.
But the messonic connections and symbols start from the 1st scene when the guy and gal come to get what ever it is from Neo. And the guy refers to him as "my own personal Jesus Christ". Then their is a sort of judas in Cypher. <off topic but cool note, when he wanted to be repluged he said he 'wanted to be rich and someone important like say a actor' and smith responded 'whatever you want Mr.Reagan' and cypher also wanted to remember 'nothing NOTHING'>
Neo has raised from the dead in the 1st one though that was inside the matrix. And he also raised the dead trinity in the second one. Their are a few others but not quite so blunt.
Then in the latest one have to note how his arms were spread out like a cross even after the robots draged him. Would say the whole little burial scene or what ever you called just seemed a bit odd unless of course it was for the messonic symbolism. Dunno enough of Christ mythos to say about the seareth like robot that collected neo. Just why didn't the robots just praticly drop the body and let it rot or at worse consume it right their for it energy.[Even though that probably what happened in the end with the big machine]
A few other christian connection again dunno about the train station bit but it fits. And the fact the last human city is Called "Zion" but that you can argue either way. Writers were just looing for its christian/judo concoations intentionaly or just a neat name to call the last human city. And in the end Neo Sacrifices himself for the salvation of humanity while some of his own people didn't belive in him. As part of the christian/catholic mythos has jesus sacrificing himself for the 'salvation of humanity and forgiveness of their sins' And I belive neo knew he was going to die and so did christ but went anyway.

Now the ending , well as in the 2nd movie the chancilor had noted the symbotic relationship of man and machine, how the humans couldn't survive without machines, while machines were dependent on humans too. <Now wish to know if the chancilor was the older incarnation of the one or not, their seem some bit that hint at it but their also are a enough discrepencies.> Also in the 2nd one the machines had said they could still survive with out the power from the matrix just not as comfortably , could of been a bluff, but can't see the archtect being programmed to bluff. And as stated their would be a percentage of humans that would want to stay in the matrix. [though thought part of the last scene was also about the programs like the exiles that wanted out]. So that some what settles the machines needs of humans but not neccisarly large amounts. And the humans, I have a feeling Zion was built by machines and the humans didn't even quite know how to maintain or fix the machines. Since zion was destroyed and rebuilt about every 100 years. So humans have further need for the machines. Sure they could surive with out them too but in much smaller and not the way they are used to either.

Now the oracules guidance, in the first two really can't see how she guided the creation of the anti Neo, Mr.Smith. Though 2nd one a little bit more since the scene right after the oracle is first time neo runs into the cloned Mr.smiths. And the whole she being a program helping humans.
Now the last movie defintly and on purpose show some of the connections. Her allowing herself to be taken by Agent Smith. Her even knowing they were coming even though seraph and the girl clearly didn't make it in time. But she also knew just about right time to leave that the agents came in the 2nd movie. Then assume the Smith, Neo faught in the final battle was the one that asorbed the oracle since she was lying in the spot he disintigrated. And he spoke about how he could see things in the fight, which the other mr.smiths assume couldn't. And the oracle even had a degree of control over mr.smith by having him repeating the line she said at the right time and mr.smith knew something was wrong right after it too.

(Btw wish we could of saw exactly what Seraph could do , clearly he was formaly in the employ of the Machavengi, and as Mr.smith talked about how he elluded him , like he was a ghost> I would assume neo is dead gut feeling if they do continue the movies it probably be the kid, and the girl be main parts. Hell Wachoski brothers even joked to the actor that played the Kid that he would be the future. of the serise. Espically how they made a little animatrix short about him and his story and they semi comment it in the movie.

 

[Decal]

one last quick note. Dose anyone else have a feeling that the 1st matrix was just a low cost primer. To start then when it sold millions they pumped the money in the sequals. Firstly the 1st film dealt with being in the matrix the most which is the lowest costing aspect of the whole production. Their was only 2-3 scenes dealing with the exterior of the ship. The higher cost was with Zion, the ships and so on yeah know was alot of cgi and maybe models but still cost a lot more than have it filmed down a city street. Yeah their was cgi of Bullet time and the the wire work and fight scenes and the helicoptor but that was still lower costing than these last two. And in numerical figures the 2 moves made combined cost 300 million dollars, While the 1st one was only half of one of them so that 75 million . And assume this last movie would be most expensive since it had the least stuff in the matrix, though that car chase scene and zion had to be a pretty penny in the 2nd one.

 

[Capt. Neville]

Dose anyone else have a feeling that the 1st matrix was just a low cost primer.

Well, that's what you get when you don't know if you'll get to do two sequels, or even how well the first movie will do.

Once the first movie blew apart the box office, I'm sure the studios were more than willing to devote extra budget to the next two

--mcn

 

[Capt. Neville]

Now the oracules guidance, in the first two really can't see how she guided the creation of the anti Neo, Mr.Smith....

Watch the first two movies again with that point of view, you might notice things you didn't catch before.

There have been arguments back and forth all over the 'net about the extent of the Oracle's influence. Although, given the revelations in the third movie, I think it's pretty safe to say that she had a very strong influence in events:

- It's pretty much confirmed now that the entire prophesy/concept of the One was created by the Oracle. The Architect obviously assumed it was to control the anomolic imbalance in the Matrix, but clearly the Oracle had a greater purpose to it (that was played out in the 3rd movie).

- She clearly *wanted* Smith to take her over so that a) his power would become great enough to threaten the machines as well as the humans, b) to deliver to Smith a false image of the future (recall his speech at the end of the fight..."yes, yes I've seen this before..." so that Smith would be influenced to be in the right place at the right time (for Neo and everyone else, not for Smith's good , and c) so that she would be in a position to deliver her final message to Neo via Smith. Smith could've easily ruined everything by deciding NOT to take over the Oracle, but he was obviously too power hungry to care.

- It can be argued that the Oracle actually *arranged* for Neo and Trinity to fall in love. Remember that it's that love that separates Neo from the previous Ones. If you think about it, the Oracle *told* Trin that she'd fall in love with the One. Well, being the only female left on a ship crew of about 4 with slim chance of seeing anyone else again, after having seen pretty much proof positive that Neo is definitely the One, and given that Morpheus and Tank were spoken for already...my feeling is that all that put together basically made Trin go "sure, why not?"

As we've learned, the Oracle tells *everyone* "exactly what [they] needed to hear". The rest of that sentence was never said, but basically reads "to do what the Oracle wants them to do." The Merovingian was right, she WAS commanding them all around--but it was, in retrospect, for a rather noble cause, and pretty much what they wanted enventually, they just didn't know it at the time.

--mcn

 

[Decal]

Well no argument about the oracle controling smith thought I had basicly said she intentionaly got caught in my original post and had some of what you said in mind. Though yeah thought about him becoming powerful enough too to be a threat but didn't write and he was probably already a threat with out the oracle, And forgot to mention have to look at the Mavengi conversation too, the oracle eyes can't be taken but most be given.

But now on the oracle controling from the begining. yeah can say she control the love aspect from telling trinity she will fall in love with the one. And her hinting to Neo that a woman liked or will like him. But don't see how she could control that Neo would take over smiths program thus setting him free and infusing him so he could be come the anti nomalie. Could claim her hinting help get Morphus caught but even then that was as they said 'couldn't happen any other way'.
And have to look at the oracle herself saying she couldn't look beyond a choice. So if anything she could see the next step after each major choice.
And now also thought about the scene of choice with the architect. Which really makes no sense and architect even admits it. He goes part of the thing to make the one feel its attachement to humanity and thus carry through the task of the one and join the sorce. And unlike the others Neo has a specific attachement by the means of love for Trinity. But then he goes ona nd tells him she will die, and either he has a choice of going to the sorce and saving zion or going to the matrix and to her. And no option of going to the sorce and Trinity will be saved too.Thus backing neo into a corner of dooming Zion and chance of saving Trinity even if temporary but also having a fighting chance of saving Zion. Or saving Zion and losing trinity with no chance of saving her. And the Architect knew he had this connection , as his connection to humanity and didn't use it.
Seen comment that this choice probably was most important him choosing diffrent had allowed Mr.smith Progress. But have a feeling it wouldn't have matter can't see how neo going back would cancel Mr.smith already. He must of had claim a rather large percentage of Matrix Programs and beings as his clones by that time. And don't think rebooting or asorbing the anomaly that created the anti anaomaly would of wiped out the latter. So what was diffrent was the fact that Mr.smith had become unbound and the anti anaomaly. He even said it was diffrent than before because he was there.

 

[Capt. Neville]

But then he goes ona nd tells him she will die, and either he has a choice of going to the sorce and saving zion or going to the matrix and to her. And no option of going to the sorce and Trinity will be saved too.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier about the Architect: he's a program, he's AI, he reasons with logic, not emotion.

Try this: go back and watch the Architect scene again, this time looking at/listening to the Architect as if he is a) completely emotionless and b) completely uncaring about what will happen. You'll find that his dialog, demeanor, inflections, everything, track perfectly (and IMHO the actor did an *amazing* job at this). He is simply another program fulfilling his purpose: to create and maintain the Matrix. To him, it doesn't *matter* what choice Neo makes, because as far as he can see the machines will win either way (choose the door to the Matrix, the whole thing goes kabloey, the Arch starts over, or the door to the Source, in which the entire prophesy loop starts over). If the Arch shows any kind of emotion, it's sort of a bemused, detached curiosity as he watches Neo make his choice. For that matter, he even points out what he sees as a flaw in humans: that Neo's hope of saving Trinity is overriding the logic of the situation, all to clear to the Arch, that Trinity will die no matter *what* choice Neo makes. To the Arch, if he were in Neo's position, he would think "hmm, well Trinity will die no matter what, and the door to the Source will at least keep the humans in the Matrix alive, even if they are still captive, so I'll go with that door". Hence why the Arch could never understand the flaw to begin with: he's bound by the rules of logic (or in his words, the "parameters of perfection").

In actuality, the whole emotionless/pure-logic mentality of the AIs is a minor theme of the trilogy, if you will. Notice the agents and how they act (apart from Smith, naturally). Emotionless. Very business-like. Just getting the job done. Also, the point of Club Hell (Mero's hideout in the 3rd movie) is that it was supposed to be a club where renegade programs go to "indulge" if you will in human emotion/feeling since such thing is alien and/or forbidden to them (note: that is entirely based on behind-the-scenes info and backstory and the like; that aspect of Club Hell was never explicitly stated in the movie, although with that light the atmosphere of the place makes more sense).

And don't think rebooting or asorbing the anomaly that created the anti anaomaly would of wiped out the latter.

Think of a computer infected with a virus. If you completely reformat the hard drive, which is essentially what reloading the Matrix is, you wipe out the virus along with it. Granted, it's a bit of an extremist method to do so, but it works.

IMHO, it's also a matter of the blinding aspect of logic to the AIs: they think "oh, no problem, we reset the Matrix and Smith goes away. Why worry?" and thus don't bother with the problem until Smith is so powerful they suddenly *can't* do anything about it.

So what was diffrent was the fact that Mr.smith had become unbound and the anti anaomaly. He even said it was diffrent than before because he was there.

Yeah, this is one of the ambiguous points in the trilogy. I get the impression that Smith, or a program like him, possibly him, *always* became that powerful, but got wiped out by the Matrix reload after the previous Ones chose the door to the source. Hence why the Oracle would arrange for Neo and Trinity to fall in love: not because that love directly saves humanity, but because that connection would cause Neo to choose the other door and thus NOT wipe out Smith, allowing Smith to grow further until he could threaten the machines, thus bringing about the crisis point that eventually forces the two sides to come to peace.

Now to back up for a sec: that's one of the beauties of this trilogy, a lot of it *can* be interpreted in lots of different ways, which is a *good* thing. All the major questions are answered, it's the meanings behind some of them which are left open and for us to fill in. We all find meaning where we can. So you could potentially argue any hundred different scenarios and how they all are the *correct* way things happpened in the movies, and personally the only people that truly know are the W. bros that created them to begin with.

Think of it as a set of equations that you're trying to find out which values for x, y and z make them all work. There could be more than one combination; there could quite likely be lots of them. I'm just presenting the one combination that I personally find to fit quite nicely.

--mcn

 

[A_Ranger]

Just saw it lastnight (it took not having any electricity in the house to get me motivated for it) and I gotta say...anything and everything than can go wrong with a film...did go wrong

 

[Recoil]

I thought it freakin owned.

 

[channe]

This is why I am not going out with you, Recoil.

 

[Recoil]

I'm sure there are a lot more reasons than just that.