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Newbie just starting S2 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

I suspect that in the original story Lorien and Sheidan would have killed the first Kosh in this episode. Killing her friend and God would have messed Lyta up even more.

What makes you say that? I gather you think the way JMS originally planned the story, Kosh would undergo a personality transplant somewhere along the way?

JMS has said that he had originally planned Kosh's death later than "Interludes and Examinations". Andrew concluded that he must have originally planned the other Vorlon death as we saw to be Kosh's.

I disagree. I think JMS intended for Kosh to accompany Sheridan to Z'ha'dum, perhaps hidden aboard the White Star, and to die there trying to buy Sheridan enough time to escape to Lorien. Perhaps he would have flown the ship into the Shadow city. Perhaps he would have flown down, shattering the transparent dome - either in order to engage the Shadows or in a failed effort to save Sheridan. (Which would have been a nice counterpoint to the events of "The Fall of Night", which in someways foreshadows "Z'ha'dum" even as it was filmed.)

So I think that JMS always planned for a Kosh II (already seen in "War Without End") and always planned for a piece of the original Kosh to play a role in his (its) demise (along with Lorien and Sheridan.) Only the timing of Kosh's death changed slightly. Sheridan still had to be left alone to meet his fate on Z'ha'dum, and the death of Kosh (and his replacement early in S4) would have upped the ante considerably, and reinforced the possibility that Sheridan, too, was really dead.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

The other character I found to be totally hateful was Cartagia. What an excellent performance by Wortham Krimmer! I had been wondering where I had seen him before and couldn't figure it out. Then...his name and those eyes finally connected me to a preacher in the soap, "One Life to Live." What amazing acting!!!
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

Yeah, Wortham does an excellent job of playing Cartagia!
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

The other character I found to be totally hateful was Cartagia.

You didn't like Cartagia? ::) I was hoping for a spin-off, myself. I figured Cartagia would escape, and move in up with Kosh II, who, it would turn out, hadn't actually been killed by Lorien et. al., but merely been drastically reduced in power.

"Can two deposed, power-mad egomaniacs share a planet without driving each other crazy?"

Dahhhh-dah, dahhh-dah, dahhh-dah, dah-dah, dah-dah, dahhhhh-dah

The God Couple (In Color)

:D

Joe
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

The other character I found to be totally hateful was Cartagia.

You didn't like Cartagia? ::) I was hoping for a spin-off, myself. I figured Cartagia would escape, and move in up with Kosh II, who, it would turn out, hadn't actually been killed by Lorien et. al., but merely been drastically reduced in power.

"Can two deposed, power-mad egomaniacs share a planet without driving each other crazy?"

Dahhhh-dah, dahhh-dah, dahhh-dah, dah-dah, dah-dah, dahhhhh-dah

The God Couple (In Color)

:D

Joe

They had each been banished by the universe and requested that they, never return
Dahhhh-dah, dahhh-dah, dahhh-dah, dah-dah, dah-dah, dahhhhh-dah
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

The only thing I'm not crazy about Cartagia is that he's just a straight rip of the early Roman emperors: Calligula + Nero = Cartagia.

But it sure was fun to watch. And that story-line was originally what hooked me into B5.
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

Except that poor G'Kar took the brunt of Cartagia's insanity. It was hard to watch...even if G'Kar actually became even stronger through his suffering.
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

Yes, it is.

It certainly shows how far things have degenerated on Centauri Prime. Even Londo can't stand it, and he hates G'kar.
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

Even Londo can't stand it, and he hates G'kar.

Not at this point in the series. Londo indicates as much himself when the approaches G'Kar about helping him overthrow G'Kar. When he describes how Cartagia would kill him, Londo says that he would never wish such a fate on anyone - then stops himself and muses that perhaps years ago, when they first met... But then says, "No. Not even then." That shows that his feelings towards G'Kar now are different than they were then.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

Just finished watching "Into the Fire." It seems like an ending...which, I suppose, it is. Several things struck me about this episode:

1. Morden got everything that was coming to him. Hooray!!!

2. Londo outdid himself. Not only did he finally realize just HOW duped he was, he also allowed himself the grief he had denied himself for so long. Also, he revealed that he would rather be sacrificed than to see his world be destroyed. His nobility shone in that brief moment. His revenge on Morden...the gift to Vir...was outstanding. I also enjoyed seeing the two embrace. It was touching.

3. The entire concept of the First Ones...the Ancient Ones...very difficult to completely "wrap my brain around" as Londo puts it. The idea that Sheridan and Delenn, as sort of an Adam and Eve, are the progenitors of the new races is overwhelming.

4. Lyta...I'm not sure I really understand her yet. She has quite a few Vorlon pieces in her, doesn't she? After the Vorlons left for beyond the Rim, does she lose this? Don't tell me.

5. I'm not sure why Sheridan saw the Vorlons as a woman in a glass cage speaking from a choker and why Delenn saw the Vorlons as friends from B5. Did I miss something? There was a lot going on.

6. I really liked Lorien and finally understood him through his backstory. Excellent.

The whole episode could have ended the series right here...but I'm not even halfway through the fourth season. Fascinating!
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

5. I'm not sure why Sheridan saw the Vorlons as a woman in a glass cage speaking from a choker and why Delenn saw the Vorlons as friends from B5. Did I miss something? There was a lot going on.

That was supposed to be a block of ice, not a glass cage. As Justin says, the Vorlons are like your parents - in this case Sheridan sees the Vorlons, who preach stasis and obedience as a literally "cold" parent. (Kosh appeared to both Kosh and Sheridan as their fathers - evidently the most important parent to each of them and probably the one they were closest to.) The woman is how the Vorlons project themselves to Sheridan, the image they pluck from his mind as the mask they will wear in this encounter. (Making the point again that Kosh I was unusual in his sympathy and regard for the younger races.) The Vorlons represent order, perfect and unchanging.

Delenn sees the Shadows (because that's who she confronts, not the Vorlons) as various friends from B5 because that's how the Shadows present themselves inside her mind. The Shadows represent chaos, constantly changing and shifting, and they operate in disguise, appearing as friends who will help you advance and evolve even while they push you into war with your neighbors - with whom they are playing exactly the same game.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

Thanks, Joe. Once again, you have clarified the scene for me. I'll have to go back and watch that again. It makes perfect sense.
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

And now you've seen Vir's wish come true.

"Can you arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

Vir's wish...and mine. I was very delighted to see Morden distressed, then dead. VERY.
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

One of my all-time favorite scenes was when Londo replied to Morden's mocking "What are you going to do, blow up the island?" with "Actually, now that you mention it...." as he pulls out the detonator. Londo's quite the artist when it comes to revenge.

Jan
 
Re: Newbie just starting S3 - Non-Spoilers ONLY!

You've gootta love Londo.Vir's little wave and smile was class too.As for what's next,lots of story arcs still going and a few more twists along the way :)
 

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