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News post: Babylon 5: Invoking Darkness reviewed

While

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> the eye(the mass of shadow altered beings controlled by a core altered being, is dead I think a single Shadow using very little tech could easily serve as a temporary defense system for Z'ha'dum. It would not be as effective or be able to control so many different things but it probably would not have to. After this the Shadows very likely decentralized there contol of the fleet much like they decentralized their bases. Perhaps a rudimentary eye had even been started on Centauri Prime.

Galen still gets angry at times even after becoming attuned with his tech. It's part of who he is and he no longer hides from that. I imagine frustration from trying to teach his order would grate on him. Much of this would entail attempting others to abandon their dependance on order and answers in favor of questions, something they don't seem that keen on. This would be reflected in his anger about the idea of a god dictating the events of the universe. It already cost him so much, including Isabelle. He probably blames his own attachment to order for Isabelle's death along with many others and it's often our own flaws we see reflected in others that make us the angriest. </font></td></tr></table>



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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
 
I'm not quite sure what The Eye is...

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>

Obvously, it's made up of any number of enslaved people, and coordinated by Weirden. But somewhere, there's a power that can overcome the free will of Weirden and all the other captives. From where does that power and intelligence come?

Is The Eye merely a galactic, organic place of power for all the Shadows? If so, how does it command ships, etc?

</font></td></tr></table>



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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi
 
When I get enough time I am going to re-read The Shadow Within, then the three Technomage books and follow up with my Crusade tapes.

After all that I hope I will understand better how the Shadows work and how the technomages came into being. I don't think I'll completely understand Galen because he is a very complicated being.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> I really began to feel quite sorry for Anna Sheridan. I also think she is a very important part of understanding how The Eye works. </font></td></tr></table>



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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
 
I finished the 3rd book a few days ago and all I have to say is BRAVO! The book was dark, but I understand the Shadow side of the B5 Universe much better.

Now I gotta watch some Crusade episodes.

laugh.gif


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deviot:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> I thought that after the whitestar crashed into the Shadows City most of the eye died but not all of it. But it was under galen's control, after galen left in the Shadow vessel the eye probably went back to Shadow control and grew larger again.

I like how the eye is basically the Shadows collective place of power.
And I wonder if they got as damaged after Zahadum blew up as much as the technomage's were damaged after destroying there place's of power. </font></td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Galen didn't control it, he freed the eye. He allowed it to do as it wished. And it wished to end the evil on the planet by letting the white star in.</font></td></tr></table>



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2466614
"Gideon says we all have things to hide."
"Does he? How unfortunate, I was hoping he'd come further than that. Well not that it isn't true of course, it's just that one simply doesn't have to say it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by B5_Obsessed:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>In the first episode following the nuking of Z'ha'Dum, we are told that Sheridan has been missing for nine days. Delenn, Ivanova and Lyta journey to Z'ha'Dum to see if Sheridan is still alive and are detected by "The Eye" almost immediately. It speaks to them telepathically "in the voices of their fathers" and tells them to land. They almost do, but Lennier had set a failsafe that would turn the ship around and jump out. </font></td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think they said what it was that spoke to them telepathically. It could of been any shadow, or some telepaths (so they could effect Lyta they had to of been more than one).

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2466614
"Gideon says we all have things to hide."
"Does he? How unfortunate, I was hoping he'd come further than that. Well not that it isn't true of course, it's just that one simply doesn't have to say it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I don't think they said what it was that spoke to them telepathically. It could of been any shadow, or some telepaths (so they could effect Lyta they had to of been more than one).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It Showed the silhouette of a Shadow's Head, the eyes glowing against the black of space.
That was a pretty good indication they got personal attention from one of the Shadows.

It was the Same silhouette Ivanova saw when Drall allowed her to go looking for traces of the first Ones using the Great Machine.
It tried to capture her mind then, too.
"It knows my name."



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
Moments before they are entranced, Lyta says "The Eye is searching for us".



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"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say.
This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
No. Not good.
Not supposed to mention... "one", or... THE one.
Hmmmm.
You never heard that."
 
I'm still somewhat confused about this topic (the rest of the universe, too -- but that's another story
wink.gif
).

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>

So, Weirden controlled "The Eye." But who controlled Weirden, who wanted to destroy "The Eye?"

</font></td></tr></table>



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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi
 
Much like a Shadow ship

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>a being is placed into the machine that controls the actions of the machine but is in turn controlled by Shadow programming. </font></td></tr></table>

What Galen does is

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>free the beings from this programming or make it ineffectual. </font></td></tr></table>



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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
 
::looks around:: Hullo. Please excuse me if I say or do anything excessively stupid. I'm new to message boards and I don't know all the etiquette. I do, however, have a question...


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> If I remember correctly, a mage spends three years as an initiate after being implanted with the tech. Galen became part of the last group of initiates in 2258.
So anyway, my question:
Is the Gwynn who goes drinking with Fed, Optima, and Ak-Shana on page 66 of Invoking Darkness the same Gwynn who appears in the Legions of Fire trilogy? If so, why is she still considered an initiate in 2267? If not, where did the mages get the tech to create new initiates? </font></td></tr></table>



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Damn good question.

I don't know if it is the same Gwynn, but the fact that they have any initiates at all means they must have come across another supplier of mage tech between 2260 and 2265.

I wish I could remember the details of Legions of Fire, but Gwynn was a full mage, not a Chrysalis apprentice. It could be that the initiate stage is like a probationary period after the tech is incorporated into them. Still, seven (we first see the initiate mages in 2265, IIRC) to nine years is a long time on probation.





------------------
"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say.
This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
No. Not good.
Not supposed to mention... "one", or... THE one.
Hmmmm.
You never heard that."
 
I was confused about this Gwynn, Kane, and Finian initiate thing too. Clearly, as far as we have been told, the last known initiation class was in 2258 and we're reading about Gwynn, Kane, and Finian in the Centauri anthology in 2267. I mistakenly recalled that these three were referred to as initiates.

I went back to the second Centauri book and found the passage. In fact, they are referred to as "cloistered". They have passed their three year initiation phase but they've been cloistered in their hiding place where they could not hone their skills and expand their knowledge/experience in the outside world.

Consequently, they are not as capable as Galen, from the same class, who has been out and about at least twice since they went into hiding. Poor Vir was quite put out with his sudden realization that he was attempting to destroy a Drakh controlled Shadow base of great power with the help of three mages, none of which were what he felt were full-blown mages or top of the rung.

It was an amusing scene.

So, I haven't found any evidence in the stories of any initiation or even Chrystalis/apprentice classes after 2258. The best hope, however, comes from Crusade where Galen tells Dureena that he won't show her the ways of the mage until after she gets over her rage at the Shadows/Drakh. One MIGHT infer from this that he wouldn't make such an IMPLICATION if he couldn't deliver on it. Even if he could, is he able to do so without it having the Shadow programming for destruction and chaos in it? One might infer this from his statement that she must settle down before he'll show her. However, I think, more likely, that the mage power is so awesome, even without Shadow programming, one must be at peace with oneself lest the individual cause terrible destruction due to a lack of character and/or disposition.

Cool stuff,

Eirik

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It never ends; it only changes!
 
Even without a new source for the Shadow Implants, there is a Hell of a lot that a Technomage could teach someone about Science.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> We know from the final book that the implants the Shadows supplied were created by Killing the person whose nervous system was used as "source material".
What we don't know is whether it was Necessary to kill someone or just Easier!
Once he learned the Truth, Galen also learned how that tech was built.
He may, some day, discover a way to duplicate the tech without needing to kill someone.

When/If he does, his REAL challenge is removing the programming that pushes the person implanted with the tech into a homicidal killer when they lose their temper.
Duplicating the Tech just might be the Easy Part.
</font></td></tr></table>



------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
I hope that I am not mistakened with respect to spoilers. As I see it, anyone that ventures into a thread known as invoking darkness ought to know that the contents of it will be discussed. So, I have not been employing spoilers. Otherwise, I would employ them no worries. ????

Anyway, as I recall from the mage books, Galen and the others discovered that within each cell is some kind of a computer circuit or something that manifests the Shadow programming.

One wonders if the tech would work without these circuits...starting out with that is. After one has used the tech with the programming and then frees the tech, why that may be different because by then the tech has learned to tap the powers of the universe in the manner prescribed by the Shadows and mages.

I have to keep reminding myself that the overall title for the anthology was the 'passing of the mages'.

I would like to see what becomes of the mages: will they learn how to make the tech either (benevolent or manevolent means); how will Galen fare in teaching the others to free the tech; what will Galen do with the Shadow ship that he acquired; what is the seventh single spell term; how do the mages engage the Drakh in addition to what we've thus far been told; when will the mages come out of hiding; will Galen ever rebel against the Circle; and will Galen ever establish a place of power?

Much fun ahead!

Eirik



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It never ends; it only changes!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eirik:

I hope that I am not mistakened with respect to spoilers. As I see it, anyone that ventures into a thread known as invoking darkness ought to know that the contents of it will be discussed. So, I have not been employing spoilers. Otherwise, I would employ them no worries. ????


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you should be using spoiler warnings as this thread actually started with a news item of a review.

So some people have/will come to this thread just wanting to know about the review not spoilers.

Generally you should always use spoiler box unless it says in the thread title that there will be spoilers.



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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au
 
Yes, especially where the books are concerned spoilers should be put in spoiler boxes unless the topic title specifically says spoilers.

It does help if you start the spoiler boxes midsentence as well so that people have a general idea what is being spoiled and wheter it would be a spoiler to them. For example someone who's read the first two mage books would have no problem reading:

As we now know mage tech comes from the

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Shadows </font></td></tr></table>

,

but they would not read:

but as Galen found out in Invoking Darkness

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>if you can take out the middle man of shadow programing the tech no longer has the same effect on the mage. </font></td></tr></table>



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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
 
Hi. Sorry it's been so long. I'm going nuts working on my new book. It is not coming easily. Anyway, I'll try to respond to a few things. You asked a lot of interesting quesitons.

WARNING: I'M TRYING TO USE SPOILER CODES, BUT I'M NOT SURE IF THEY WORKED. IF YOU DON'T SEE ANY BLACK BOXES IN THIS MESSAGE, AND YOU DON'T WANT TO READ SPOILERS, THEN DON'T READ ANY OF THIS. SORRY!

Lyta asked how and when I thought of the titles for the trilogy and the books, and whether JMS was involved. Joe was involved in the sense that he approved of the titles I came up with. For my earlier B5 novel, I had come up with the title THE SHADOW AWAKES. Joe did object to that one--for good reason, since the Shadows were really awake before the beginning of that book--and suggested THE SHADOW WITHIN instead. In the case of the trilogy, once I received Joe's treatment for the "techno-mage trilogy," I developed it into a 200-page outline. During that process of inventing characters, figuring out themes, and developing plot, I started to get a sense about what the titles should be. I wanted to give a sense of historic scope and tragedy in the trilogy title, and the idea I began with was I wanted something like "The Twilight of the Gods," which is from Wagner's RING CYCLE, which I love (Anna's scenes were mainly written to the "Ride of the Valkyries" from that opera). "The Twilight of the Techno-Mages" sounded a bit too stupid, and I eventually got to the "Passing." I think that title came first, and then the book titles. I had them all figured out before I finished the outline.

Channe asked why I moved from astrophysics into writing and publishing. I think that answer that Monica posted is about the best I can explain it--if you want me to expand more on any of that, let me know.

Mondo Londo raised the issue that at the end of Book 3,

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Galen seemed to have lost his anger at the universe, and then it seemed to be back in CRUSADE. I worked hard to try to get this right . . . it's tricky, though. The key for me was on the top of p. 347, where "The thought of some all-knowing god manipulating, judging, handing out life her, death there, sent anger resounding through Galen. But if there was no omniscient god . . . "

So Galen's peace is predicated on this idea that god is *not* omniscient--he's a learning god, not a knowing god. When that idea that god is omniscient is raised, it's like a red flag in front of a bull.</font></td></tr></table>

The major instance when Galen displays this anger at the universe in CRUSADE is in "The Path of Sorrows," when he's forced to relive Isabelle's death. My thought on this is that after that flashback, he's mentally gone back to his old anger and his old thoughts, and is furious at the universe because that's how he felt at the time, and the creature--sorry, I forget if it had a name--reawakened all those feelings. It takes him a while to get them out of his system. So that's how I thought the trilogy Galen and the CRUSADE Galen fit together.

There's been a very interesting discussion of Book 3 and the Eye,

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>whether it survived in any form, and what exactly confronted Delenn, Ivanova, and Lyta when they arrived at Z. The book doesn't go into it, because no point-of-view character knows what happened, so you can make up what you want. I agree with Galen2005, that something was cobbled together. Certainly some machine people survived somewhere on the entirety of Z, and I left Bunny there with the thought that the Shadows would use her significant power as part of their makeshift defense. A Shadow would also probably be involved in some way, since a mage wasn't available. I don't believe it's the same as the original Eye, or nearly as powerful or far-reaching. But on a small scale, and on a telepathic level, I thought they could put something together to do what we saw in the episode.</font></td></tr></table>

Wyvern, Doctor Gonzo, and Eirik made some comments that I agree with, so I won't repeat what they said, since this is going on too long.

B5_Obsessed, I still have to go check out your review.

Nice talking to you! I hope I've used the SPOILER codes correctly . . .

I'll try to check back in a few days. Happy holidays!

Jeanne
jcavelos@sff.net http://www.sff.net/people/jcavelos


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> B5_Obsessed, I still have to go check out your review. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why, thank you Jeanne.
I'd better go back and read it myself. It's been a while.
laugh.gif


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"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say.
This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
No. Not good.
Not supposed to mention... "one", or... THE one.
Hmmmm.
You never heard that."
 
And just so you know, if my review seems a little negative, it's because I simply listed my criticisms first. Overall, I liked the book(s).

As for the two instances where Galen aided Sheridan, I guess my point is that I could live with ONE instance, but BOTH was pushing it for me.



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"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say.
This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
No. Not good.
Not supposed to mention... "one", or... THE one.
Hmmmm.
You never heard that."
 
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