Nuttin to see here, move along...

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

No, Andrew, makiing cosmetic changes such as you suggest would also be illegal. In fact, you'd probably get sued for more money because of the obvious attempt to deceive. This is precisely the kind of thing JMS accused of with regard to The Lord of the Rings early on, which he referred to as "doing LotR with the serial numbers filed off" and one of the reasons he was so offended by the accusation was that it something even lower than piracy - plaigirism: passing someone else's work off as your own.

The change from a tv program to a game is a major change. The studio would have to prove that the game is an adaptation of the plot. Since any side stories will be original that is difficult, in the UK ideas cannot be copyrighted.

http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/original.htm

http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/novelty_value.htm
http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/ideas.htm
http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/substantial.htm
http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/fan_fiction.htm

http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/what.htm

 

[Sigma]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

Since when is mod a illegal thing? Why Primus deleted first post? He/she only asked if there was programmers who can help the mod. Why is this a illegal thing?

People write fanfics all the time.

 

[Jan]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

People write fanfics all the time.

Yes, they do. And as long as it's for their own private enjoyment, that's all well and good. It is, however using copyrighted material and that is infringement. Nobody's going to care or worry about it as long as it's not published or distributed. Once it is, the copyright owners and their lawyers are likely to care. Expensively.

Jan

 

[darth_librarian]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

Well, there are about half a dozen B5 mods out there. There have been for the past five years. Same with Star Trek, Stargate, Stark Wars... every franchise you can think of. Some get closed down, the majority stay...

Legal issues aside, it happens. And I find the fan-fic corellation to be quite a good one.

And have we not had this discussion before, many times?

 

[Jan]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

Yep, we have. And we're likely to keep having it as long as people try to convince themselves and others that infringement is legal or a good thing to do. Or that it's all right because 'everybody's doing it', the classic teenager's defense.

Jan

 

[Sigma]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

But why its bad thing?

 

[Jan]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

Because if the copyright owners decide to protect their property it could cost the ones doing the infringing thousands and thousands of dollars. If they want to take that risk, that's their perogative. But they shouldn't be trying to convince others that it's legal and they shouldn't delude themselves about it, either.

Jan

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

If something can be made freely, it can be published anonymously.

If publishing so would hurt someone, or deprive them of deserved profit... I would recommend against it.

If publishing so wouldn't hurt anyone, or the profit denied is mere hypothetical profit (or undeserved profit)... I'd say "consider if safely delivering your contribution is worth the hassle of reliably dodging the lawyers".

Evading copyright enforcement requires slight effort (not much, but it's noticable). Weigh it before you expend it. Perhaps your energy has better uses?

However, if you do proceed, I wish you luck, since you are obviously *not* out to grab a quick buck.

 

[raw_bean]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

"Whenever a copyright law is to be made or changed, the idiots assemble." --Mark Twain

Excuse me but I am not an idot and do like being addressed as such .

5. The Mark Twain quotation was clearly intended as an insult to those who dared to mention that you are violating copyright law. I'm sorry the truth hurts, but that doesn't give you the right to call those who are better informed on such matters than you are idiots - still less to do so by proxy and then try to evade responsibility for a note you injected into the conversation.

Excuse me, but can you people READ?

For those taking offence at 'being called idiots' (which you weren't), you're doing a very good job of appearing as such.

The quote, once more:

"Whenever a copyright law is to be made or changed, the idiots assemble." --Mark Twain

Mark Twain, and by extension the quoter, are calling idiots those who *make* copyright laws, not any random person with an opinion on them. The position being that the laws are idiotic, not you lot.

Stop being so indignantly defensive, and pay attention to what people actually say. He did point out he wasn't calling anyone here an idiot.

 

[Jan]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

Considering that the discussion was copyright law *as is*, there was no valid reason to post that quote except to be insulting.

We read just fine.

Jan

 

[darth_librarian]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

Stop being so indignantly defensive, and pay attention to what people actually say. He did point out he wasn't calling anyone here an idiot.

Thank you. I actually enjoyed the quote, he was talking about lawyers, not people here.. It was an innocent request for help in a project that exists in a legal grey area. Many people associated with similar projects have posted here before in various capacities, we've even discussed it in various threads. I'm not quite sure why folks are so hot under the collar on this one.

 

[raw_bean]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

Considering that the discussion was copyright law *as is*, there was no valid reason to post that quote except to be insulting.

We read just fine.

Jan

Read, maybe; comprehension, that's the next step.

Copyright law '*as is*' must, logically speaking, have been 'made or changed' at some point previously, yes? And if copyright law is considered by someone to be idiotic, then is that not a valid reason for that person to use a quote saying that those who draw up copyright laws are idiots?

He didn't call you an idiot, denied that he even meant to imply anyone here was an idiot, and his quote was a perfectly valid little aside pointing out his views on copyright law and those who drew them up, which I assume is not you.
To quote jms: "Words mean what they mean, not what you want them to mean."

Even when you *don't* shoot the messenger, they still take offence!

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

Something I have learned in my years on internet discussion boards is that it is very easy to misinterpret someone else's intentions when all we have are black letters on a white screen (or whatever your colour scheme is) without tone of voice, facial expression or body language to go on.

A good rule of thumb that I have always adopted is that if one person misinterprets my intent then that is probably their shortcoming, but if more than one does then that's my fault.

For what it's worth, my initial interpretation was that it was intended as a swipe at those making comments on current copyright law, but I can see how it was intended otherwise once the context was made clear. If the quote hadn't just been posted without context in the first place all this could have been avoided.

To both sides of this particular "argument" ... it's time to make whatever apologies are necessary and move on.

 

[hypatia]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

Yea, back to the topic. I was just starting to learn something about copyright law.

 

[darth_librarian]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

I've studied it on and off for years, and still cannot get my head around some aspects. I've decided its primary objective is to help people stay rich, or at least in pocket. Most of the time they dserve it, sometimes they don't.

Don't get me started on reference database copyright law...

 

[raw_bean]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

Something I have learned in my years on internet discussion boards is that it is very easy to misinterpret someone else's intentions when all we have are black letters on a white screen (or whatever your colour scheme is) without tone of voice, facial expression or body language to go on.

Very true.

A good rule of thumb that I have always adopted is that if one person misinterprets my intent then that is probably their shortcoming, but if more than one does then that's my fault.

Hmm, not sure that holds as often as you might think, but I agree in theory. Sort of.

For what it's worth, my initial interpretation was that it was intended as a swipe at those making comments on current copyright law, but I can see how it was intended otherwise once the context was made clear. If the quote hadn't just been posted without context in the first place all this could have been avoided.

As for 'once the context had been made clear', which I presume refers to me, all I did was repeat exactly what the guy had said, and dispute people taking it to mean something other than the literal meaning of the words and sentences. The context couldn't be clearer, from my perspective.

To both sides of this particular "argument" ... it's time to make whatever apologies are necessary and move on.

Right enough. I don't think I've much to apologise for, except perhaps being a little terse and agressive, so sorry for that. But back to the subject at hand.

Actually, on one of the JMS quotes linked on the first page, a point came up that made me think. He mentions use of pictures from B5 on internet sites being ok if copyright is correctly stated as being WB's/PTEN's. I'm not particularly knowledgeable on copyright law with regard to modding, but I know that many mods based on copyrighted franchises include a txt file in with the mod package, listing who contributed what work for one thing (eg. models provided by someone working on another mod, stuff like that), as well as re-stating that all material is copyrighted by <whoever the franchise copyright holder is>. Eg, in a mod for Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy attempting to re-create the gameplay of an earlier (no longer available) LucasArts game, Dark Forces, their file lists who made what assets for the game, but reinforces that all material is copyright LucasFilm Ltd. and George Lucas. Combined with the fact that the mods are not sold, are such measures enough to be reasonably sure of dodging the lawyers?

 

[Jan]

Re: B5:SD Needs A Programmer!

Combined with the fact that the mods are not sold, are such measures enough to be reasonably sure of dodging the lawyers?

The only possible answer to that is no. It's completely dependant on whether the lawyers are told to pursue it by WB and who knows what could trigger a crackdown? If they can show that they're not trying to claim the images and characters as their own, I'd *hope* that the worst that might happen would be a 'cease and desist' letter. But again, it would be at their discretion.

And, of course, IANAL etc.

Jan