Old-school kinks to work out(spoilers)

[Myrmidon]

The below comments are constructive criticism of some things about the movie, and I don't cover all of the good things I liked. Other posters have done a good job of covering the good stuff.

I am a B5 fan since season three and onwards, when the show shed a major portion of it's geekiness found a solid footing.

However, with the advent of shows like Farscape, the Sopranos, etc., the bar has been raised for the dramatic quality expected from us fans.

The theme of the points I wish to address involve the simple idea of accessibility.

1. There was a seriously flawed scene which I believe may have alienated some of the female viewers. Even a macho male geek like myself took exception to it:

The human male Captain is in sickbay, speaking with the soft-spoken female Minbari healer. She is in the process of giving him a medical debrief on the condition of the injured First Officer.

Abruptly, in the middle of her dialogue, the door behind her opens and standing there is the taller tactical ops officer (a male human). Without preamble or protocol, he launches into something important to say directly to the captain. He flat out interrupts her for an issue of only moderate criticality. Military rank/protocol aside, this is an interspecies boo-boo.

The Captain has a short conversation with the tacops officer, then he strides past her out into the corridor without any closure with the Minbari. Matter of fact without any acknowledge of her at all. It was as if she wasn't even there. With the camera angle set with the Minbari facing us, and the door behind her, it is an embarassing, set-piece example of male-superior behavior.

To see this in 2002, on a (pilot?) movie about humans in a far future time period, on a mixed-species ship, was astonishing. LOTR had better get with the times. Let us NOT suggest the ridiculous idea that in the far future, soft-spoken females will still tend to be ignored. Hopefully our collective IQ level will have risen by then.

ATTENTION ATTENTION young male candidates for a starship captaincy (or a management position in today's world): Do not handle your mixed crew in this manner. You will lose people.

Outside of this scene, I think the Captain did very well, however.

2. G'Kar had a great, humorous role in the movie. I actually fell off my couch a couple of times with some of his lines. (We seriously should petition JMS for an all-G'Kar-all-the-time cable network

However...

am I wrong, or did G'Kar not ONCE have a meaningful interaction with the female Narn engineer? No guidance, no "howdy nice to see you", congrats or anything. Consider his role as spiritual leader for Narns...and for us viewers. Is he too lofty a figure to care about individual Narns? I think not.

As icing on the cake, on his exit scene on the bridge, he didn't even look at, or acknowledge the existence of, the female engineer.

Are these examples where the "veil of multiplicity" is drawn aside and we're seeing macho lapses in the script writing? Okay, I'll back off and withdraw that statement from the record. The recurring theme is "only the males are involved with the important stuff".

3. Geekiness. On a general geekiness evaluation, I would unfortunately have to place LOTR back at B5 season one or two. Must I wait another two or three seaons for the groundwork (already done in B5) to be redone?

A major geek image was the female weapons officer being shown as suspended in space, punching and kicking weapons bursts from her arms and legs. A not-so-subtle reinforcement of the idea that beautiful women are idealized images only for the male viewers...inaccessible, unattainable.

Could we at least superimpose the ship schematic over her body to show weapons ports, and have a coordinate grid? The idea is cool, but needs to show more of the "machine" in the human-machine interface idea.

Bravo to LOTR by making the weapons officer (a traditionally macho male role?) a female. But to me she looked silly out there floating in space kicking and punching. Okay, I'll get used to it, but it did set off my geek alarm.

4. Racial inclusion. Being of mixed parentage, I am aware of race issues without really holding allegiance to any one "tribe". Enlightened Sci-fi shows like Farscape, Enterprise, and now LOTR have, once again, white people in charge. What is the deal? No one race in our human species is fundamentally superior...this is accepted everywhere except by the Kansas board of education, which recently approved Creationism to be taught again. But why is seemingly so during the casting calls.

Conclusion: It's reassuring to see B5 back on track after Crusade. I am committed to the B5 vision, but there is work to done.

Tell me what you think. Oh boy, if JMS reads this, I'm gonna get an earfull.

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[bakana]

Should I guess that you've never been in the military?

When you interrupt the captain to make a report, you do so without worrying about who he's talking to.
It's YOUR judgement call as to whether the interruption is important enough to warrent this bit of rudeness.
If the Captain Disagrees with you, he'll have your head on a pike, so you'd better be Right.

But, the scene was in line with my own experience.
FWIW, I was once reprimanded by a captain I was reporting to for NOT interrupting.
I was told in no uncertain terms NOT to be polite.
Either make the report Immediately or don't do it at all.


As far as G'Kar failing to have a "meaningful" relationship with the Narn officer, HEY, there were 90 Minutes of screen time.
You can be sure G'Kar spoke with her OFF Camera.
From a Money point of view it works out like this:
Cost of the movie: Call it $2Million. Give or take a little.
90 Minutes of screen time.
That's a bit over $20,000 Per Minute.
That's a Lot of money for: "Hi there Fellow Narn. How Ya Doing? Said any good prayers lately?"

As far as the "White Male Dominance" jms has the best record in the business. Below are just a few of his comments about how he planned B5 in that respect.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The *quality* of performers was generally fine, it's the question of diversity. We felt we were seeing the same faces again and again over 2 years and the pilot.
Casting directors tend to have very defined areas of interest. And, again, she was working on lots of other projects.
So this year we changed casting directors to Fern Champion (yes, that's her real name, and she's from New York, so watch it), who's been great, and is giving us a real breadth of actors, particularly in terms of a wider ethnic range, which is something I've been pushing for for two years, and never felt I was getting as well as I'd've liked.
jms

So we saw not just Caucasian actors, but hispanics, african american, asian ...I felt strongly after the first season that we didn't have enough ethnic diversity, which is one of the reasons we changed casting directors to one that had a wider background in this area. As it turned out Bruce was the best person for the role, but we went into the process open to whoever walked in the door.
jms


There is going to be a VERY strong female character. Although there is a male who operates as the titular head of BABYLON 5, and is more or less a de facto representative of...a certain group, BABYLON 5 itself is actually *run* on a day to day basis by (oh, what the heck, give her name) Vice-Commander Laurel Takashima.

Now, this may not mean much until you understand what BABYLON 5 the actual *place* is, and how it works. Which will come soon enough. If I were to look at that OTHER sf show, hers is a much more authoritatve and independent role than, say, that of Riker. And there are other very strong female characters.


I have a tendency to gravitate toward female characters in stories. Those who might remember CAPTAIN POWER will recall that the lion's share of personal stories were about Jennifer Chase, and those were generally our best stories.

Ethnic Diversity: yes, most definitely. Leaving the aliens aside for the time being where sexuality may not necessarily be as we know it, and ethnic background is a bit different, and since the question concerned itself with humans ... our *main characters* consist of the following: a male caucasian commander; a female Japanese vice-commander; a male Italian security chief; a black Xenobiologist male; a female telepath whose ethnic background we haven't yet determined; a female caucasian trader (Sinclair's S.O.); and (for the series, later) a female environmental specialist (probably Hispanic). My feeling here is that we have *all* gone to the stars, and I want there to be a good ethnic mix in both the main characters, and the guest-starring and cameo actors. And I *especially* want to see a nearly 50/50 mix of men and women in equally significant jobs and responsibilities.

Relationships: My sense of the story is that things are a lot more relaxed in that respect. Some folks get married. Others don't. There are open-ended relationships. It's not a big deal one way or another; there are always going to be those who prefer monagomy, and those who tend to roam.

And bear in mind one *crucial* aspect to B5... there is a constant mix of not only ethnic groups, but alien races, religions, thought, standards, mores, and sexual practices. This will present a constant opportunity to explore alternate ideas, and to mix-and-match. By our exposure, humans may adopt some alien notions, and vice versa. B5 is the ultimate melting pot, just as the early Ports of Call were a hodge-podge of dialects, backgrounds, beliefs and other elements, whose only real commonality was that their business or personal lives brought them to the same place at the same time. Same with B5.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[Myrmidon]

bakana,

Your comments were well considered. I especially liked the diversity material presented.

However, by simple head count I can clearly see the dominance of men in the B5 world in the top slots: Sinclair, Sheridan, the new human Ranger captain, the majority of the Minbari Council of Twelve, and the Human, Narn, Drazi, and Centari supreme leaders. Yes, the leadership transitions to females on Earth and B5 itself, finally bringing at least minority representation. I do not forget the importance of Delenn.

As far as the racial thing, I will still point out that the main protagonist has been a male white guy through the B5 series and now to LOTR. That is not to say that the rest of Hollywood and society in general is doing any better at racial representation, though...but this is a show about the far future.

I would also suggest that the *main* plots and conflicts in LOTR involved exclusively the male actors. Yes, the females had important *supporting* technician solutions for certain problems (the weapons officer resolving the mine danger with her interface ability, the engineer getting the ship off the ground somehow). But their roles could easily have been removed and the main story (about the male Captain coming of age and gaining acceptance of his male bosses) would be been intact.

I still disagree on the tacops behavior in issue #1 in my post. And yes, I've been around the military all my personal and professional life. He did not interrupt the Captain so much as he interrupted the Minbari. He came in to the scene behind the Minbari, who was speaking. Being in the Captain's line of sight, all he had to do was say "Sir!" if it was important. The Captain would then, at his discretion, acknowledge and allow him to continue. Well, I'm not going to split hairs on this one. Let's stay amiably disagreed.

The fact is, my impression of the scene was clearly and uncomfortably men doing the important stuff and the women supporting. Even if the script writer didn't intend it that way, that was what was communicated.

Don't get me wrong, I'm with the B5 universe wherever it goes. By no means am I even suggesting a racial/gender quota system, either. To break B5 into the main stream, though, it has to be more girl-friendly, at the least.

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[Dylan Neal]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The Captain has a short conversation with the tacops officer, then he strides past her out into the corridor without any closure with the Minbari. Matter of fact without any acknowledge of her at all. It was as if she wasn't even there. With the camera angle set with the Minbari facing us, and the door behind her, it is an embarassing, set-piece example of male-superior behavior. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually that's not true. In the script there wasn't an exit line for David leaving Firell, but I added one. Before I leave the room I say "thank you Firell", as in thank you for your report and now I must leave. I haven't checked my copy of the show recently, so I'm not 100% it's still in the final cut, but the point is as an actor I'm always aware of things like this that may be missing and add them myself if needed. I certainly did in this case.

Another frequent example (not sexist or racist) of simple ommissions are when people talk on the phone. In real life one always says 'bye' or something to that effect when hanging up, but in film, actors (because it's never in the script for some reason) rarely say 'goodbye'. I think this is because writers and directors sometimes think that by saying goodbye it makes the character (particularly a tough guy) look a little weak or too accomodating, they just want the actor to give an enigmatic (favourite word amongst soap writers by the way...

) look and then just get on with things. I have never done this in my life and always add the 'bye' or whatever at the end. Granted, little things like this happen much less in quality programs, but it's still amazing how often these things are ignored.

Dylan

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[Lyta]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>To break B5 into the main stream, though, it has to be more girl-friendly, at the least. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I just want to say that as a female myself (and a pretty darn strong one at that) who tends to bristle at the "male dominated Hollywood", I object to that statement. Also, being half-Japanese, I also can be quite picky (if not offended) when things are portrayed in ways that I think are not racially believable, especially on the asian side of things.

That said, I just don't see what you are taking offense to Myrmidon. It is one of the aspects about B5 that really attracted me to it ... the ethnic diversity and strong female characters. Even though Babylon 5 is set in the distant future, it is still a reflection of ourselves and our history. Not all of it is perfect nor is it "politically correct".

Apparantly, you have this narrow-minded view of the world where everyone is against the female gender and anyone of "mixed parentage". All I can say, is that you will see what you -want- to see, not for what it actually is. JMS does not believe in anything that you pointed out in your posts (females are weak and not powerful, "whites" dominate the universe, etc.) so unfortunately, you saw only your own percieved prejudices and bigotry.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions but I think you read way too much into certain scenes in the telemovie ...

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Monica Hübinette | Abyss : B5 <- New & Improved!
Pouch-sucking spawn of a bladder fish! Son of a fitch piece of smelt! Tok-swallowing fenbarger! Thrak it! --Na'Feel swearing in B5LR

 

[channe]

Girl-friendly?

I think Babylon 5 is very girl-friendly. (But then, I'm not your ordinary girl).

Ivanova could handle her own in the council room, in C&C, in a Starfury, captaining a Whitestar, stealing Babylon 4, etc., etc., etc. Delenn had two castes, a military force, Lennier and Sheridan ready to die for her. Takashima wasn't all that bad. There were highly-placed women in the Clark government. We saw more female Senators than male. Moving to Rangers, Sarah is obviously *very* capable.

Compare that to Voyager, where you had a catsuit and a captain who couldn't make a decision without looking askance at Chakotay.

As for Sarah being suspended, your symbolism is a bit off, IMHO. Sarah's suspended in the weapons pod because she IS the Liandra, and the Liandra is suspended in space, fighting in three dimensions. Sarah has to look up as well as side to side.

On race-blind casting: sometimes, when you're casting, and you do it race-blind, you'll get a member of an ethnic group in the captain's chair. And sometimes you'll get a Caucasian. For JMS, it's all about who gets into the character's skin at the audition, and for JMS, that was Dylan Neal.

It's not about keeping the white guy in power.

Plus, the story arc rocks.

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "I wonder," said Frodo, "but I don't know. And that's the way of a real tale."

 

[Talathanar]

[Ivonava Quote]
"Who am I? I'm Susan Ivanova, Commander, daughter of Andrei and Sofie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance, and the boot that is gonna kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart. I'm death incarnate and the last living thing that you're ever going to see. God sent me."
[/Ivonava quote]

*happy sigh* What a woman!

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[SapphireMage]

Hi Myrmidon,

As for the first point, I did notice the sudden intrusion of Malcolm into the scene, but I felt that it was more of a personality issue. Firell is soft spoken, and her point about Dulann was nearing its end, even though she was about to add her spin on the situation. Plus, I saw it as a transition scene between Firell and Malcolm. (Script writing mentality.) I truly enjoyed this scene with Firell because we learned more about Dulann and for those who are new to the universe, the Minbari.

I guess I see the show as having many different personalities as well as a diversity of races/genders. I love Na'Feel, Sarah, and Firell. If I had to pick a personality I most resemble, I would pick Firell. I loved her truth, and felt that it was an important thing to say. Looking through Minbari eyes, I don't think that the situation would have upset her. If the comment she had to tell David had been important, she would have found a way to let him know.

Number 2, I would add my vote for a G'Kar-all-the-time cable network. I've been quoting his exit speech and getting stange looks. The personality, the actor, the writing, everything meshes so well, that I never 'skipped' a G'Kar scene when 'watching the tape'.

I too kept waiting for him to acknowledge Na'Feel on the bridge when he exited. Maybe there was some eye contact that ended up on the cutting room floor. (If we get a series, maybe G'Kar can revisit the Liandra and acknowledge her status as the first Narn on a Ranger ship.)

Number 3, I'm not too sure what is being said here. Although I explained as much as I could about B-5 during "The Gathering" to my mother before watching "Legend of the Rangers", and she amazed me. She was attached to the characters and was worried about Dulann, and even found the 'suspended' fighting interesting, calling my attention to it while I was in the other room (I didn't tell her I'd already seen it! I was loving her reactions when something happened and listening to how she would keep me informed). Granted, the only quality time she can spend with her 20somthing daughter is to sit and watch SciFi.

One of the wonderful things I love about a show is exploring what makes up the characters. Plot alone without character developement is not something I find interesting. There has to be something there that exposes, explores, and exasperates a main character. That is why I want to see a series out of all of this. I want to know Na'Feel's background. Learn about Firell's 'quiet side'. Discover what Sarah doesn't want people to know about her.

Plus, I want to know what David is looking for. What is it like for Dulann to be a 'minor' Minbari Telepath? Why do they need a 'Covert Ops' on the Ranger's ship? Did I mention that I LOVED the G'Kar-Malcolm scene!

I loved reading everything JMS information in this thread. Great reading! OK.. here is my spill!

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Happy Huning...

[This message has been edited by SapphireMage (edited January 26, 2002).]

 

[Myrmidon]

Dylan,

Nope, to my faulty memory there was no ending statement from Martel. I believe it got cut.

I suppose it's not about a vocal statement to close the discussion with the Minbari, but more the message implicit in the execution of that scene overall.

Shameless fan praise follows: Great work to you, and to the cast of LOTR. I identify most with the pensive energy of David Martel. I absolutely am WAITING for the moment when he seriously loses it and goes on a rampage: breaking enemy bones, trashing Hand ships, etc. Must be a little Kirk-worship still lingering in this fan...


Lyta,

My opinion stands, and is one intended to prompt feedback. Your opinions also stand.

Please remember that I am not taking "offense" to anything in LOTR, however.

Your post then continued on to use phrases like "narrow-minded" to launch what amounted to a personal attack. Yes, you are committed to LOTR but please calm down. The statements to the effect that I am some sort of "mixed-race advocate" are simply preposterous, laughable. I shouldn't have even mentioned my racial makeup...which seems to have given some a lever to push. Let's keep our comments constructive, shall we?

One purpose of my post was to air my concern about the underlying message that this scene may have conveyed, that is all. It *reassures* me that you gals are watching! Sheesh!

Again, everyone, breath in calmly through your nose and exhale deeply from the mouth...I am pointing out my impressions about about a small scene in the movie, and other stuff that IMHO could have been done better.

Channe(and Lyta),

Excellent. Channe and Lyta, my plaintive "girl-friendly" statement was a trial balloon to see who out there agreed or disagreed. If the ladies sayeth thus that LOTR is accessible and cool for girls too, then it must be so.

But I'm trying to figure out what it is that might be keeping B5/LOTR less than well-known in the real world...what IS going on?

As to Liandra suspended in space, I believe it just needs more human-machine interface bells and whistles. I am a geek for ship weapons systems...I want to know what is being used when she punches vs. kicks, etc. Maybe we can map that stuff out as the show (hopefully?) progresses.

The "untouchable female" symbology I suggested about Liandra was a bit of a stretch. I hereby withdraw that statement...I had little sleep and was out of my mind that night. Who the heck took my login name and wrote that?

As to the white guy invariably winding up in the big chair: well, I am humbly pointing out thise result for the sake of discussion. I share your tolerant perception of what JMS and co. are trying to achieve during the casting call, but still want to point out the result.

For the record: I have no racial/gender agendas of any sort. Others in our current society do, however. I am emphatic to their views. For example: an african-american associate of mine's first reaction to Lord of the Rings was to wonder why black folk can't play at swords and sorcery too. As a life-long advocate of fantasy and sci-fi, part of this post was to gain insight as to how to answer his question.

Captain Janeway...as an authority figure, personally pissed me off the most of the recent SciFi bosses. I kept willing her to throw a chair at the next subordinate who thought about her command (sometimes) to the expense of executing it.

Talthanar,

I admit to a serious bit of hero-worship of Ivanova myself. Her part was superbly written. As she bore her personal pain, conducted a fine military career, kept her people jumping (Ivanova the Terrible?), and then gained a destroyer command of her own. Ah, I'm preaching to the choir.


SapphireMage,

Yes, absolutely, it was a transition scene. However, I constructively criticise it's execution. With Dylan's reply, perhaps it was brought to the attention of those that might want to know...was even known as they shot the scene. "Smoothing a kink" is the idea here. This is precisely the type of scene that a mainstream press nay-sayer would seek to attack.

Hahaha! I have communicated with another G'Kar fanatic! Yes, indeed, All-G'Kar-All-The-Time Cable Network. The illustrated book of G'Kar. Okay, I'm okay now. However, I have resisted quoting his lines...that's just way over the line

You give a telling statement about the weakness of some SciFi formulas "Plot alone without character developement is not something that is interesting". I think that after the Sopranos and Farscape (and other recent, deep(er) dramas...techniques like the event-driven (Star Trek?) formula may not just don't cut it anymore. How challenging then, to write a two-hour script that accomplishes this hook?

Whoa now, out there...this is not to start of smack talk about Star Trek, which I am deeply committed to. Well, once they fix the 80's rock theme song for Enterprise.

Thanks again to all for the feedback. When time permits, I will start a thread about the stuff in LOTR that I especially liked...

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[Dylan Neal]

OK now you've got me curious.

I checked my tape and it is there! I say thank you to Firell right before I make my exit with Malcolm. I'll admit my copy is not from the broadcast, but it is the final cut and I think that would have caught my attention when I watched it on the 19th. I also don't see how they could have cut it out without the resulting cut being very choppy.

OK, your turn...

Dylan

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[channe]

Oh, there's nothing out there that says "black folk can't play at swords and sorcery."

LOTR, the movie, was following Tolkien's vision of things. Tolkien was a Caucasian professor of English and linguistics at an British university. Middle-Earth was meant to be a primeval European setting.

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "I wonder," said Frodo, "but I don't know. And that's the way of a real tale."

 

[Myrmidon]

Dylan,

That is my bad, then. Thanks for the correction. I am still left with the scene as being a glitch in the script, as far as for this viewer. It is noted that others did not get that impression, but my post is to seek out and examine that which could've been done better. I sit in the minority view of this, as not one reply has been to agree with my assessment of the scene...so far.

Channe,

I could not agree with your more. I am reporting a visceral, immediate reaction felt by another person. This african-american fellow would like to feel included in swords and sorcery fantasy, but felt bombarded by white skinned, blue eyed people (with pointy ears, but still...) enshrouded in angelic light. No people of color in sight. Oh I had a knock-down drag-out with him on this...we finally agreed to disagree. I think I can convince him to come with me to the rest of the Rings movies...even if I have to drag him. (His judgement is awesome on most things...he brought B5 and Farscape to my attention).

This is the ONLY reponse I will post in regards to Lord of the Rings, as is it off-topic and was included only as recent example of how an unintended "message of inaccessibility" can be conveyed...to some viewers. Don't do it, you fellow Rings fans!

I am really enjoying the substantive discussion going on in this thread.

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[GKarsEye]

Going out of your way to ensure that a character in a leadership position is "ethnic" is just as wrong as excluding people of different ethnicities. It draws attention to race where none need not be drawn. The seemingly good intention to include everyone is misguided and, in the end, detrimental.

And of course, there are real life reasons why the casts in American and Canadaian productions will be predominantly white: because Americans and Canadians are predominantly white.

What boggles my mind is that everyone regarding entertainment is so concerned with race/gender, violence, sexuality, its potential "affect" on children (ugh), etc, then they complain why there's nothing good on TV. Maybe if everyone would just let people do their freakin' jobs, the quality would be better.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[Myrmidon]

GKarsEye,

Discounting the human history (and today's continuing reality) of racism, glass ceilings, good-old-boy networks, husbandry of wealth, various types of exclusivism, cultural/gender bias, etc...and imagining a world in which we as humans evaluate each other on a fair and supportive basis, I completely agree with you.

Yes, making an "ethnic" decision against a particular group for a position would simply be a reverse discrimination. I simply bring to our collective attention issues such as the dominance of males in the B5 universe leadership positions as a simple wonderment of why?

I too, have lost my patience in the past and said, sheesh, leave off on the race/gender issue for once and just let me watch my dang show, would ya? Again, the thread is about what to address to increase LOTR's accessibility.

I myself am race-unbiased...but felt the need to explore these perspectives. This is because I meet people who have, from mild-to-brutal real-world experience, have learned to live their lives with a great deal of racial/cultural/gender consciousness. People for which *inclusion* is foremost in their minds. YES...I want to live in a future where all this silly differentiation didn't EXIST: I want in world in which "how good you are is how far you will go, and only as far as you want to go in life."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the recent census place "traditional" caucasians as not the U.S. majority for the first time? (I've got to take some sort of memory supplement...) I simply point this out as a part of the argument that reality is different from perception. It is the perception (the message) conveyed by a TV show, which is closely scrutinized.

Who-is-playing-what-role *IS* an important real-world concern, no matter what. Is this fair or right? Nah.

Finally, before anyone bothered worrying about who had what role, there were no colored super heroes, for example. The scrutiny does have some benefits.

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[Lyta]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Myrmidon:
Lyta,

Please remember that I am not taking "offense" to anything in LOTR, however.

Your post then continued on to use phrases like "narrow-minded" to launch what amounted to a personal attack. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I apologize if my words were too harsh but your words were laced with insensitive and strong terminology. Yes, it did what you intended ... spark discussion. If you didn't want a heated discussion about the movie, then you should have choosen better words.

Perhaps you should have started out with all the good points that you liked instead of the other way around. That way we could have gotten to know who you are and make judgements on your critisisms in a better light.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Channe(and Lyta),

Excellent. Channe and Lyta, my plaintive "girl-friendly" statement was a trial balloon to see who out there agreed or disagreed. If the ladies sayeth thus that LOTR is accessible and cool for girls too, then it must be so.

But I'm trying to figure out what it is that might be keeping B5/LOTR less than well-known in the real world...what IS going on?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really wish you would drop this "girl" terminology. I find it belittling to use it when you really mean to describe an intelligent, independent woman. A girl is someone in the 12 and under category.

As for why B5 doesn't do as well in the "real world"? Who knows.

I cannot do more than speculate as I am certainly not the average woman. B5 takes a certain level of commitment and intelligence which not everyone has.

I have some friends who are really smart and geeky and they can't stand B5. I think it has more to do with the fact that they don't like -anything- on TV and thus don't understand anyone being commited to a TV show. Granted, I think that the fact they don't even -own- a TV accounts for their opinions rather than lack of intelligence.

B5 just doesn't have the broad appeal that some shows do *cough*trek*cough*. I know Rangers is an attempt to do this but in a way that JMS feels comfortable with.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The "untouchable female" symbology I suggested about Liandra was a bit of a stretch. I hereby withdraw that statement...I had little sleep and was out of my mind that night. Who the heck took my login name and wrote that?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whew! I am glad you retracted that since I thought it was the most far-fetched statement in your post. My husband and I did have a good laugh however.

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Monica Hübinette | Abyss : B5 <- New & Improved!
Pouch-sucking spawn of a bladder fish! Son of a fitch piece of smelt! Tok-swallowing fenbarger! Thrak it! --Na'Feel swearing in B5LR

 

[Myrmidon]

Lyta,

I appreciate your perspective and comments.

This is the only piece of your reply that got me riled up: "Apparantly, you have this narrow-minded view of the world where everyone is against the female gender and anyone of "mixed parentage". I reviewed my post and found no support for this. That was more than just a commentary on my strong language. But let's drop the matter.

As far as the "good stuff" about LOTR, I am a long-winded bloke, and saw how long the post was as is. I started a "Things I *really* liked about Legend of the Rangers". I would appreciate your thoughts in this thread.

Girl-friendly. Hmmm, you take exception to this. Well, it is all a matter of interpretation. I have encountered women who have said that wo-man, fe-male are derivative male-language. On this language thing, we just can't win!

I want a phrase that describes an enlightened, female audience: young-at-heart with wonderment for the joy in the future, and intelligent and independent (your input).

How about Gal-friendly. Lady-friendly doesn't work. Female-friendly, nah. Not to put too much analysis into it, but when women generically address each other, don't they tend to say "Hey girl, or girlfriend, or gal, or chick, or lady". Young-at-heart, I say.

"Friendly to female audiences" is wordy, but will have to do in future posts. I still reserve the right the deploy my original off-the-cuff phrase when you are not looking

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[GKarsEye]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Again, the thread is about what to address to increase LOTR's accessibility.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok then, here's some harsh reality for you: if you want to make the show more accessible to as wide an audience as possible, make the captain a white male caucasian.

Statistically, minorities favor science fiction less than white folks. Same with women vs men. Sure, you could say that's just because there are few minorities and women in the genre. Fine, but that doesn't change the way things are. White men 18-39 are the most desirable demographic for this sort of show.

Voyager had a female captain and it's easily the least popular of the Trek shows. And please, don't start slamming Voyager, I know how you all feel about it. However, the fact is, people didn't like the strong femalie character. Again, I know people are itching to start explaining that Janeway isn't the reason for the show's failure, or that the reason they didn't like her is not because she was a woman. I've heard a billion times, as have most of us. I just don't believe it. People don't like to see a woman take control, and be tough. Heck, the biggest complaint with Janeway was that she wasn't "feminine" enough. What silliness. And please let's not get into a whole Voyager discussion, it's just an example. The fact is: a sci-fi show with a female lead tanked.

IMO, the coolest superhero since the X-Men was black: Spawn. Though it has done well, it will never go beyond cult status. The animated series on HBO is visually breathtaking, gritty, brooding, and just good watching. So why is it on at 1:00 am on Mondays, with absolutely no advertising? Good it be that the character of Spawn was black, as well as his wife and her new husband? On top of that, the black characters are intelligent, sophisticated people.

The sad fact of TV entertainment is that people don't mind "ethnic" if it's properly stereotyped. There are plenty of black characters on sitcoms. It's just that they all have poor grammer, are loud, and enjoy fried chicken. Dance Mr. Bojangles, dance.

Now, imagine you are creating a sci-fi show and you want it to appeal to as big a crowd as possible. From a purely business perspective, how could you not cast a white male as a lead character?

The public has to change, the entertainment industry will follow. It is not the Sci-Fi Channe's responsibility to show us proper race relations. It is our own.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[Myrmidon]

GKarsEye,

Unfortunately, I cannot reply in detail to your last post. There were so many controversial or debatable viewpoints expressed that I prefer not to make this thread a war of opinion. Not to mention, I am an English major which would make the post o-so-wordy. So, I will only make these points:

I took three semesters of Science Fiction in college. Each class had a most diverse group gender/race students. The readers of Science Fiction (SF) are the true SF following, only which a part actually watches SciFi shows regularly.

Science Fiction is a haven for alternative sexualities, policitics, social systems, etc. "Cognitive dissonance", the main differentiator of Science Fiction as compared to other literary genres, could be seen as creation of an alternative reality to explore a concept. So if your debatable statement concerning minorities liking TV science fiction less than whites is true, why is that so? The answer may lie in accessibilty.

Not to harp on Voyager, but the reason Janeway pissed us off wasn't a gender issue. It was the weakness of the character herself. Chakotay was more commanding, IMHO, and frequently stole the show.

Wow, I'm not going to touch the other things in your post. Let's leave it at that.

I cannot abide by this statement, however:

"It is not the Sci-Fi Channe's responsibility to show us proper race relations".

Could I go so far as to say that SciFi has played a leadership role for social change/evolution? From the first interracial kiss on Star Trek and on, SciFi shows have an elevated social awareness, and have actually changed the TV marketplace.

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[channe]

Um. No.

Janeway had the potential to be a great character.

I think the problem with Janeway was that she *wasn't* a strong female lead. She had to look to Chakotay all the time.

She was great, until men started writing her - exclusively.

Not to say that men can't write SF women (jeez, look at B5), but they sure screwed up with Janeway (but then, I don't think Starfleet's a real military, anyway.)

And it wasn't even Janeway that turned me off to Voyager. It was dumb stories. Like Janeway and Paris getting turned into salamanders, having sex, and having a lot of salamander children.

That was pathetic.

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "I wonder," said Frodo, "but I don't know. And that's the way of a real tale."

 

[Recoil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> And it wasn't even Janeway that turned me off to Voyager. It was dumb stories. Like Janeway and Paris getting turned into salamanders, having sex, and having a lot of salamander children. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did that really happen? Must have missed that one, and Im rather glad I did if that was really an episode. Jesus that is pathetic

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK