Opposites Attract

[Zathras]

Scifi Channel is showing B5 in the mornings again!!! 9 AM Eastern (USA).

With that said, allow me to post some thoughts...

I caught the last half of Babylon Squared this morning and payed more attention to the "B" plot - that would be Delenn's journey to meet with the Grey Council on their starship and to be given the position of council leader...which she turns down in favor of staying on Babylon 5 and continuing to study the humans.

When asked why she's so enamoured with the humans, Delenn gives a surprising answer. She mentions that the humans do not seek conformity...that if you hurt them, they come back stronger...that they have gotten to where they are through thousands of years of struggle, hardship, and evolution...and that they have the capacity to one day walk among the stars like giants.

It sounds like Delenn is facinated with humans because we are a shining example of the philosophy of the Shadows. Much of what we have accomplished as a race has been attained through trial and error...if one thing doesn't work, we try something else. The notion that it took 5 tries before we had a functioning Babylon station is testimony to this aspect of the human mind.

The Minbari have been manipulated by the Vorlons for at least a thousand years (probably a lot longer). They learned order and discipline and they took those lessons to the extreme. Humans, on the other hand, were also manipulated by the Vorlons, but we didn't swallow their bait - it affected some of us, but we're too independent to allow our whole society be ruled so strictly.

So much of the B5 story is a blend of the two idealogical extremes of the Vorlons and Shadows. The Rangers are a blend of Human and Minbari. The Minbari, themselves, have human DNA (to some extent) in their biological make-up. Valen is seen as the pinnacle of Minbari evolution, yet arrived at his true calling through pain and struggle, not through order and structure.

 

[Wanderer]

I never thought about that, thank you for the informative post.

 

[Elric]

Good post This is also mirrored by the fact that that the Humans & Minbari had to work together to defeat the Vorlons & Shadows.

It is so great that even after watching so many times, people are still finding more & more in the show.

 

[KoshFan]

You're absolutely right on some things. We humans had the will, the Minbari had the means. IIRC, Sinclair says in "Coming of Shadows" that most of the Rangers are Human, even though it's a Minbari organization -- we have the determination.

But I think you missed something else big that Delenn said in "Babylon Squared," and elsewhere. We build communities. And that is not a Shadow hallmark. Delenn would shy away from any race that smacked of Shadows, but she might have seen that our capacity for community-building overrode our more chaotic impulses.

 

[Elric]

Delenn would shy away from any race that smacked of Shadows, but she might have seen that our capacity for community-building overrode our more chaotic impulses.

And the fact that their souls we being reborn into us Humans also helped her to overlook our more chaotic impulses

 

[Zathras]

We build communities. And that is not a Shadow hallmark.

I'm not so sure...

Granted, we never really see the Vorlon homeworld and we really don't know how their society is structured. But judging from what we do see...I can only remember three instances where we see more than one Vorlon in the same place at the same time. (In Dukhat's chamber in ITB, 1000 yrs. ago when Valen arrived, and in the reflection off the tank that Lyta is suspended in when she's altered on their homeworld.) Even then, it's the SAME two Vorlons we see over and over again. The Vorlons seem to shun differences in favor of conformity and order, and so they probably wouldn't build communities in the same way that humans do.

We do get a very good glimpse at Z'Ha'Dum, however, and the Shadows there had built great cities that were seemingly full of beings (not unlike Humans). Not only that, but most times that we see the Shadows, there are at least two of them working together. The Shadows thrive on differences - it's differences that make the younger races fight each other, and it's differences that make those races stronger through the conflict when they band together to drive back the Shadows time after time.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Note: my rambling is longish... and probably sleep-inducing. Since the clock shows a small numeric value, I consider this good. Better skip, but if you insist... read with a pillow at close reach.

-------

I would start from what Delenn knows.

Knowing of Valen... surely Delenn thinks that in some conditions, order brings benefit. She knows of Vorlons -- beings who tolerate order. However, doubtless she also knows that Valen had unique advantages. His creations last long... but cannot last forever. Change is coming sooner or later -- and systems of order poorly tolerate change.

To face new challenges, not only Delenn herself must change... but in different sense, she must bring change (while avoiding destruction) to her species and homeworld too. In a curious sense... Delenn's mission is of a peaceful agent of chaos.

-----

Surely Delenn knows history.

Humans have played with extremes of order -- it hurts us. We have burnt our fingers. Organizations like Psi-Corps and regimes like Clark's... have occurred before.

I suspect she knows nature too.

When social/natural changes force us to undergo extreme chaos... it hurts equally badly. We cannot survive alone without giving up countless things dear (including ability to achieve). Human society cannot step back like Shadows when they accept defeat -- cannot dissolve and form again without a terrible cost.

No younger civilization could. Before crucial technical barriers are broken... individual independence has limits. From the viewpoint of Shadows... younger races are probably high-maintenance and poorly integrated with technology. Shadows come together sometimes, because they want. Where they wander the rest of time, one can only guess.

Quite differently, our kind must stay together, maintain structures and traditions to withstand time... but limit their rigidness, for this can destroy us too.

----

I think Delenn's fascination... is towards finding a sustainable balance.

Vorlon and Shadow models demand for abilities which neither Minbari nor Humans have developed (yet?)... but something from the Humans could help the Minbari, like something from the Minbari could help the Humans.

Without the guidance of someone from future, rigid order thereatens Minbari society too. Since I suspect that Minbari too have a somewhat varied history ("times before Valen") Delenn might realize that order cannot be maintained longer without a bitter cost. Lack of order her people are not prepared for, but might learn to tolerate from Humans.

Likewise, Human tolerance for chaos is limited. Until a greater capability for individual independence is reached, we cannot form a sustainable civilization if societies keep falling apart. If the wielders of Shadow technology are biological beings who still need air, water, Earth and society... better understanding of said society is needed, lest a Great Burn occur.

In the fictional history of Babylon 5, the Great Burn eventually came, but humanity had become sustainable without Earth. Operating without homeworld was already possible. They could always return, like another kind did, just in different circumstances. As for the Minbari... human influence might have helped them avoid the Great Stagnation.

 

[dominionspy]

Even then, it's the SAME two Vorlons we see over and over again.

Are you sure?

I just recently watched 'War Without End' again and I noticed that the two encounter suits in the background look very similar.

If they are Kosh and Ulkesh, then it means that Kosh then changed his encounter suit at sometime over the next 1000 years, but Ulkesh didn't.
Or they could be Ulkesh and another Vorlon?

There's another place we see two Vorlons - in 'Falling Toward Apotheosis' where Kosh and Ulkesh fight.

 

[Zathras]

I just recently watched 'War Without End' again and I noticed that the two encounter suits in the background look very similar.

If they are Kosh and Ulkesh, then it means that Kosh then changed his encounter suit at sometime over the next 1000 years, but Ulkesh didn't.

I think that's it exactly. I seem to remember a quote somewhere saying that those two were Kosh and Ulkesh and that somewhere along the line Kosh did change his encounter suit for some reason. If somebody knows where I got that from, please help me out. If I'm not remembering correctly or if I'm mistakenly remembering somebody's fanfic, please forgive me for being a dope .

There's another place we see two Vorlons - in 'Falling Toward Apotheosis' where Kosh and Ulkesh fight.

Yeah, I don't know HOW I forgot that one !!! Thanks for the correction.

 

[Nancy]

I think Delenn's fascination... is towards finding a sustainable balance.

What they needed was a balance between chaos and order. The Vorlons went to the extreme with order, which isn't good, and the Shadows went to the extreme with chaos, which also isn't good. You need both order and chaos, in moderation of course.

 

[Zathras]

I think Delenn's fascination... is towards finding a sustainable balance.

I think that's it exactly, Nancy and Sleepy. Delenn didn't want to become a chaotic being - she was too steeped in Vorlon guidance for that to even appeal to her. But she did see qualities in Humans that she thought would make her (and her race) more balanced. If the Minbari incorproated a little chaos into her overly-ordered lives, then they could be more of what they needed to be.

Social Commentary:
I think that human beings have already struck a very good balance between chaos and order. We build communities that are strong because of our differences, yet we structure those communities so that there is definite leadership and order. Every person is free to persue his or her own goals and objectives as long as those personal goals do not break the agreed-upon laws of the community.

We are essentially very selfish creatures. From the time we are born our motto seems to be, "I want what I want when I want it with no thought to anyone else." This begins at the time we are born. If left to our own devices, we would be the epitomy of chaos - everyone going about his or her own agenda with no thought as to the good of the rest of the community (including our own families). Yet as human beings we have the capacity to overcome our natural desires and aspire to higher things. I don't have to indulge every impulse that comes my way. I am not at the mercy of nature - I can CHOOSE to do what is going to benefit me or to do what is going to benefit you. I don't always have to look out for #1. I can show compassion, forgiveness, and charity, and I can choose to sacrifice my own desires so that someone else can have what he desires. Essentially, we are chaotic creatures who have learned that we are better off if we care for one another and maintain order.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

I think that human beings have already struck a very good balance between chaos and order.

I doubt our balance is particularly good. Sure, people still live on Earth, which does offer some proof of sustainability... but the balance has always changed. Unable to change ourselves, to achieve balance... we have played different changes against each other. I think this juggling will keep occurring for a long while.

Essentially, we are chaotic creatures who have learned that we are better off if we care for one another and maintain order.

I don't think that caring for one another, in itself and without context... qualifies as orderly or chaotic. I even suspect one cannot always separate the concepts of selfish and unselfish.

To complicate things further, while I generally consider order wasteful... I suspect that for every system... there is an optimum level or order. This optimum level I think... depends on environment, and the capabilities of the system's components.

-------

By helping another person overcome difficulty... is one really promoting order? Instead, one could be promoting opportunity for informed and independent choice, from the widest range of options -- which is not pre-determined to increase order.

By helping a society avoid disintegration... is one promoting order? To some degree yes... but one may envision a more rigid order arising after collapse. Hence by keeping balance, one may actually be supporting an optimum level of chaos, a level which offers benefit without overstepping limits of tolerance.

By helping another person attain something... is one really unselfish... or simply aware that both want the same thing, and one getting it helps another get it? By giving up something precious... is one unselfish... or simply aware that risking something now avoids a worse risk in future?

No, in my opinion... the pair of opposites forming from chaos and order... cannot be anyhow linked to behaviours which we consider selfish or unselfish.

 

[KoshFan]

I just had an interesting related theory.

During Babylon Squared, Delenn says humans build communities. Remember what she knows about this.

One, she knows they built the Babylon stations -- and she knows what happened, in part, to Babylon 4. After all, the Minbari remembered it when it was built.

Two, she knows that the Chrysalis device can change a Minbari to a Human. Why not the other way around?

Three, she knows that the greatest builder of community in Minbari history was Valen -- a Minbari not born of Minbari who arrived on the Human-built Babylon 4.

She also knows that Sinclair has Valen's soul, and it's entirely possible she'd figured out that part too.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I'm not so sure that Delenn knows everything you're giving her credit for at this point in the story. If I interpret what she said in WWE correctly, she didn't recognize where B4 came from until she saw B5, or the plans for B5. So she would have known that during S1. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me (not recognizing B4 until she saw B5), but I think that's what she said.

As for the other revelations, I don't think she really knew at this point that the Chrysalis Device transformed Minbari into Humans and vice-versa. She wasn't sure exactly what transformation she was going to make. She knew the device was integral to fulfilling prophecy and that she would use it, but beyond that I think she was in the dark. Somewhere in his posts (I don't remember which one), jms commented on this.

She also knew that Sinclair had Valen's soul, but I don't think she knew that he was actually 'Valen' at this point. She likely thought he was Valen reincarnated. I don't think she knew the truth until she received Valen's letter to her in WWE.

Just my two cents.

V/R
John

 

[Zathras]

If I interpret what she said in WWE correctly, she didn't recognize where B4 came from until she saw B5, or the plans for B5. So she would have known that during S1. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me (not recognizing B4 until she saw B5), but I think that's what she said.

I think the first 4 Babylon stations were Earth solo projects. The Minbari wouldn't really care what kinds of ships and stations the Earthers were building as long as they kept them out of Minbari space. They probably only knew that EarthGov was building SOME kind of space station for ambassadorial meetings and treaty-making. It was only when the project was in jeopardy of being cancelled and other races joined in the funding to build B5 that the Minbari became interested in the spec's. After seeing Babylon 5, I'm sure that most or all of the Grey Council realized that it was connected to Valen and his station.