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Possible original arc

Quote]Originally posted by Loadhan:
<font color=yellow>Agreeing with the above, I also am not positive the Vorlons created telepathy in general. They might have evolved it themselves or created it themselves, but some races out there might have also evolved it independently. Sure, they did breed Telepaths on "hundreds of worlds" but does not mean they didn't get the genes from existing telepathic races or that some formed without outside intervention. I've always thought the Narn telepaths were much more powerful than others - since the Narn telepaths managed to drive off their world a heavy force of the First Ones - and without much technology to back them up. I thin it's been said that the Narns were pretty much agrerian(sp?) at the time and had not even come into the industrial revolution age.
</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Then how did G'Quon know that Z'Ha'Dum was at the edge of know space. I think this indicates that their beliefs were sophiscated enought that they knew of space and all.


<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>It took nuclear bombs to get the Shadows off Centauri Prime but a group of mindwalkers did it on Narn with much less tech .. I'd say pretty powerful; even Lyta could only stun one Shadow ship at a time with great strain in Season 3.
</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Wasn't it a whole planet of telepaths. G'Quon was after all the Narn christ figure.

<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Also there has been hints that the Drakh might be telepathic ... if not telepathic than it's done by advanced technology to keep a "mental connection" with others. Also we've seen at least one instance where a Drakh soldier expertly performed what looked like telekinesis - again that could have been advanced tech. From what I understand, telephathy only blocked the organic mind/body from the Shadow tech - like blocking the organic host from controlling the Shadow ship. Was it stated to be dangerous to the Shadows themselves ... though it seems the Shadows were very much slaves to their own tech anyway ... The Shadows were able to take over Lyta's mind in "Into the Fire" just like the Vorlons did ...</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

The Drakh telepath is very different from normal telepathy so I guess it doesn't interfere with Shadow tech sand perhaps the Shadows were the ones that gave the Drakh the telepath and their keepers.
 
Regarding the Centauri and their telepathy weren't they also shaped by the vorlons. I recall that Londo himself saw something when Kosh came out.
 
G'Quan might have gotten the name "Z'ha'dum" from the Shadows or their servents on Narn. They might have come openly, granting gifts, back then - though I have nothing to back this up other than Shadow philosophy, no proof, just speculation. It did seem only one-thousand years later that they had little records of the Shadow occupation of Narn so it somehow missed many of the history books and seems to become something more like a myth. Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, was it not said somewhere that the Narns did not have advanced tech until they took it from the Centauri when they beat them back off the planet? True they were probably more advanced than a thousand years ago but I've never heard of the Narns having space travel until after the end of the first Centauri occupation. To them, Z'ha'dum might have been just "a place in the stars". They might have even had a star to point to or just knew it was "out on the edge of the sky" etc.

As for G'Quon rallying lots of Narns ... I have nothing to support weather he had many or few ... still, a Younger Race ship can do some serious damage to a planet; a small fleet can decimate the entire surface; a fleet of Shadow ships should easily be able to take out the entire Narn population of 1260(aprox) - save the Narn teeps were quite powerful. And not all Narn were telepaths because the Shadows managed to kill almost all the telepaths - enough so the gene was never strong enough again. I'd be surprised that such a large number of their population (which if anything like Human population a centuries in the past) was only a small fraction of today's - possibly not even a billion) being killed would not have shown up more definately in their history books. It seems only G'Quon wrote about them and the people and the Kha'rhi did not believe they could be enough of a threat to worry.

At least these are - as always - only my theories. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
<font color=yellow>Regarding the Centauri and their telepathy weren't they also shaped by the vorlons. I recall that Londo himself saw something when Kosh came out.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Londo didn't see anything when Kosh saved Sheridan. (I think the actual quote was "Nothing. Nothing at all.")

And the Drahk seem to function in a kind of "hive mind" within their species and not be able read other's thoughts.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PillowRock:
<font color=yellow>Londo didn't see anything when Kosh saved Sheridan. (I think the actual quote was "Nothing. Nothing at all.")
</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

In the Centauri Trilogy he says he saw a being of light or something like that which indicates the Vorlon programming is also in the Centauri.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hypatia:
<font color=yellow>I'm not quite following you on this conclusion that you come to. Where do you get that telekinetic genes had bugs? /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

None of the telekinetics were "stable"

In Season 5 Peter was shown as having a stammer due to mental problems and the teeps talked to him as if he was a child.

Teep books spoiler
<font class="small">Spoiler:</font>
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"><font color="#000000"> In "Dark Genesis" page 201-202 Steven talking about Remy says
"This is the first teek I've even seen. Are they really all like this - a little soft in the head? That's what I've heard."
</font></td></tr></table>
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow>It has been hinted by none other than JMS, in one of his short stories (of which I have read a synopsis) that the Vorlons started creating telepaths much earlier.
</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

You are thinking of "The Nautilus Coil" by J. Gregory Keyes in the final issue of the Babylon 5 Magazine.

<font class="small">Spoiler:</font>
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"><font color="#000000">
Human telepaths were stage 3. Lyta was a stage 4 telepath.

Stage 2 was intelligence i.e. normal humans.
</font></td></tr></table>
 
I believe that the first stage (life) and second stage (sentience) were never very related to Vorlon activities. Being arrogant hovering closets, they simply expanded their plans to cover things which started on their own. Perhaps even before the Vorlons reached space flight. Because life on Earth is several billions years old, and discovering/manipulating countless sources of life in their own "childhood" would have been too much for the Vorlons.

Some time later, they naturally discovered Earth. Saw a group of species heading towards sentience. To ensure they would be ready when those species would reach sentience and technology... they took samples and delivered those to their R&D department...

"Here they are, Oshkosh Naranek. It sure looks like they will become sentient. Perhaps as soon as in 500'000 years. Ensure that we have telepathic genes ready by then."

The Vorlon researcher, whatever its name, shoved the samples in the back drawer of its encounter suit, and forgot them for 499'000 years. Millennia passed and Humans became sentient. They developed language, society, technology. They explored Earth and travelled its seas, but were still planet-bound.

Sometime during that time, the Shadows discovered them too, leaving battlecrabs (or their spores) somewhere in the Solar system. They too wanted to know when a new species would reach space. When disturbed or awakened, those ships would signal their owners.

Sometime around 1260, the Shadows were successful with their period of chaos. They turned most species in their direction, organized a winning battle against the forces of order. Sometime during that time, a bonehead called Valen arrived from nowhere. He brought along a large base, great determination and knowledge of future history.

Valen knew who moved the pieces, and much preferred to move them himself. He had already fought Shadows and argued with Vorlons. In fact, he drove back the Shadows and avoided compromise with the Vorlons. Already before traveling to the past, he had disagreed with the "arrow lauched at its target" reasoning of Ulkesh Naranek. I suspect that Valen may have split Vorlon ranks.

But no matter what he did, Valen could not stop the cycle. Because he was part of the cycle. That would have meant stopping himself, not existing in this time, and hence letting the Shadows win. He could only achieve a stalemate, so others in the future would have chances of ending the game.

Sometime in this period the Vorlons realized (or Valen told them) that Humans would reach space travel before the expected time. The would reach space in mere 1000 years. There would be Humans prowling the galaxy and Human telepaths helping against the Shadows.

Oshkosh Naranek (or whatever its name was) quickly retrived the samples and started a hacking session of 800 years, coding new telepath genes for the Human species. When the time came, there were still a few bugs... but software producers never let bugs annoy them.

Quite similarly to Microsoft, the Vorlons introduced them regardless of bugs. Ironically enough, they trusted *evolution* with sorting out the bad copies. Therefore most Human telekinetics are somewhat soft in the head. Lyta obtained her telekinetic abilities from "version 2.0" genes. By that time, the bugs were corrected. Hence she was not soft in the head.

Instead she represented the improved version of telepathic abilities - developed to balance out a new power the Shadows had created. Powerful telepaths like Lyta were the Vorlon answer to powerful technomages like Galen. Vorlons probably planned more powerful telepaths. Shadows planned more powerful technomages, able to lead entire armies of Shadow technology.

But neither side reached their next stage. Most of Shadow research on modifying the younger races was destroyed when Sheridan bombed Z'ha'dum, and Galen conventiently stopped the Eye to allow this. The war entered a stage where younger races were deemed irrelevant, and weapons of much greater power were revealed or built.

Not that the younger races agreed with that... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
 
JMS has fairly specificaly said it was just a few narn teeps ( <a target="_blank" href=http://www.jmsnews.com/scripts/MsgStore.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetMsg&List=1&Topic=1&Flags=1&Query=crusade%20q%20quan&QFlags=1&ls=1&qs=1&qt=0> JMS news</a> ), so either narn teeps were all lyta class, or they just proved too annoying to the shadows for them to stay. The shadows may have even left them on purpose, knowing the teep gene was lost, planning on bringing them on board for the next shadow war.

<font color=green>Kribu's note: edited the URL.</font color=green>
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
In the Centauri Trilogy he says he saw a being of light or something like that which indicates the Vorlon programming is also in the Centauri.<hr></blockquote>

Just to throw gasoline on the fire....


From The Lurker's Guide (see how nice it would be to have a searchable Lurker's Guide archive here on B5LR? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif:
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/044.html#JS:centauri>What Londo saw</a>

Please note the third bullet on that one:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Londo saw what he said he saw. <hr></blockquote>

As for the novels, I offer this quote, from upon many:
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.jmsnews.com/scripts/MsgStore.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetMsg&List=1&Topic=1&Flags=1&Query=novels%20canon&QFlags=1&ls=1&qs=1&qt=0>JMS News</a>

I've lost the other quote where he's more specific about the "broad strokes" part (basically that some of the details aren't canon but the general flow of the books are). I'll see if I can locate that one....

Cheers,
-mcn
 
The only thing i can remember JMS saying about the issue is : ' what is , is better '
and no , I don't have time to find where I read that quote.
Frankly, if Michael O ' Hare had stayed we wouldn't have got 5 seasons of B5, His less than stellar acting ability (compared to Boxleitner) and his permanently morose character would have got B5 cancelled long before we ever got to S5.
 
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