Questions about West Wing (mostly re: Josh+Donna)

[Ninja_Squirrel]

A few years ago, I grew slightly tired of The West Wing, especially when Angel and then Alias began airing at the same time. But, now I'm back on board, watching new episodes (while taping Alias) and catching up on repeats thanks to Bravo. Somehow, it's magically delicious to me again.

So, I'm wondering...

1. Are Josh & Donna secretly in love with each other? If so, is it equally mutual, or do you think one of them loves the other more?

2. Other than the subtle signs of two people having respect, concern, and dedication for one another, has there ever been a "close call" where they really did get close to hooking up or revealing their feelings?

3. I know C.J. implied to Donna that it's obvious she loves Josh, and one time Amy hit Donna with the blatant question, "Are you in love with Josh?" but has anyone ever said anything to Josh, implying they knew how he allegedly feels about her?

4. Do you think Josh & Donna will ever get together? Do you think that would be a good thing, or would their relationship jump the shark?

5. Who do you think should be President after Bartlet (Santos {Jimmy Smits}, Vinick {Alan Alda}, or someone else)?

6. Which characters do you think will carry over to the next administration, and what job descriptions do you think they would have? Will anyone from the current cast end up Vice President or at least Chief of Staff?

7. Do the West Wing DVDs have any really good special features to them? I'm especially interested in information and behind-the-scenes footage of the sets. I don't think Blockbuster has them for rent. Is there a source, other than Netflix, for renting them and/or buying them *super* cheap?

Thanks

 

[channe]

1. They're meant for each other. They won't get together until the end -- if they get together at all. But, yeah, both of them are secretly in love with the other, even if they don't "get" it. It'll happen.

2. No, not really; there was a moment a few episodes ago where Josh *almost* went to Donna's hotel room to talk to her as more than an oppoinent, as a friend -- but he chickened out. There was also a line when Donna dragged him into the closet to tell him about something he should know: "Is our relationship about to change?" But it was offhand and Donna didn't notice anything... it was more of a 'Josh is funny' thing. Other than that, there are just funny moments, like when Josh gives Donna a commemorative pen.

3. No. But everyone knows.

4. Good question. I think it'll only happen at the very end of the series -- it's not true to the characters if they confess their love for one another (or whatever it is they'll do) before the presidential election. They'll be too busy!

5. I think it'll be Santos, although part of me would like to see how they handle a Republican West Wing show (even though I'm a die-hard Dem.)

6. ...this is why I think it'll be Santos; Josh would stay, of course, and maybe C.J. and Charlie. I hope they'd keep Toby, too, but I'm not sure they would. If it's Vinick? None of 'em will stay, 'cause Vinick's a Republican.

7. I don't know the DVDs.

That was fun!

 

[Ninja_Squirrel]

Okay, now that I've gotten at least one response, I guess I should answer a few of my own questions:

1) I think they're in love too. It might be equally mutual, but if it is "lopsided", I think Donna might love Josh just a little more. She seems to demonstrate it more openly. He's better at hiding it. I missed the Bravo repeat earlier this week where Donna is injured in a car bomb in Israel, but from the summaries I've read online, Josh goes berzerk wanting to blow up the entire Middle East. Everyone understands why, and it takes only a minute or two before he's on a plane to Donna's hospital in Germany, with Leo's permission. I think with Josh, Donna is more of a crutch and a thing to be in awe of, which for an intellectual guy, could be the definition of love.

2) In an earlier episode, there is a story about how Donna came to work for Josh during the Bartlett campaign, left, and then came back all because of an old boyfriend. It had something to do with an old boyfriend stopping to get a beer with friends on the way to the hospital to see Donna after an accident (or something like that). Josh says if Donna was in the hospital, he wouldn't stop for a beer. Donna immediately responded that if Josh were in the hospital, she wouldn't stop for red lights. Granted, if she meant that literally, she'd probably be joining him in the hospital along with other car crash victims, but as a throwaway line, it was a cute statement of affection (which, of course, was not followed up on).

3) In the episode after the Israel car bombing, a reporter that Donna apparently hooked up with in Israel is visiting her in Germany. He can sense the tension with Josh, and even asks Josh if him being there is a problem. Even strangers can tell.

4) They might get together before the end of the series. The major barrier has been that they worked together. Her leaving was the main motivation that pushed Josh to leave the WH and campaign with Santos. And with her in Russell's campaign, you're right, they're too busy. However, as soon as the election is over, when they don't work together, when they're not opponents any more, when they have a minute to breath, I think that's when they need to go for it. I'm hoping for one major scene with a big build-up. In the middle of a celebration (or concession speech) they both realize, it's time. They rush through traffic and/or crowds, nothing stands in their way, they gotta do this right now, the sound is replaced by sappy music, they finally get to one another, they don't say anything, nothing at all, they just see each other, pause, and then go for it, no looking back... Even if their relationship would "jump the shark" (ala Sam & Diane, Niles & Daphne, the two characters in Moonlighting, etc.), it would still be worth it for a scene that good.

5) I've only seen one episode that had Alan Alda in it, so I have too little to go on as to how good he'd be. I'm not totally on board with Jimmy Smits yet either, but closer. I think Santos will get it for several reasons, including the Deomcratic tradition of the show and the potential to carry over more cast members. From the rumors I've read, the producers haven't decided on Santos or Vinick yet, but Russell (our starship captain Gary Cole) isn't even being mentioned.

6) I think Josh has Chief of Staff locked. Considering my previous answers, I'd like Donna to be in there somehow. I think Will, Kate, and Charlie could carry forward, but I'm betting the others will move on. Leo has health problems, and it won't be the same for him once Jed is out of the Oval. Frankly, I could do without Toby, but it's plausible he could be an occasional guest star (maybe running campaigns for others or being a lobbyist). C.J., having been both Press Sec. & Chief of Staff, doesn't have many more choices, and I'm betting Allison Janney would want to move on to other roles. Even if some of the old Bartlett staff got roles in the Cabinet or Congress, they would fall outside the traditional focus of the show, and would probably end up being recurring guest stars at most. I would love to see Gary Cole retain the VP role under Santos, but I don't know how likely that would be.

7) I've found a rough floor plan of the fictional West Wing online, but they move the cameras around so much, it's still hard to tell what angles they're shooting sometime. I'd love it if one of the DVD features was a tour through the set. Interestingly, I saw a picture in a West Wing script book showing the cast and director doing a practice script reading in the Roosevelt Room. Who needs a conference room when a part of the set already has a long table and over a dozen chairs.

 

[babylon1122]

I remembr hearing somewhere that Gary Cole will be leaving as he is staring in his own series.

 

[2aMageing]

Re: Questions about West Wing (mostly re: Josh+Don

So, I'm wondering...

.....flexes fingers...........goody goody........

1. Are Josh & Donna secretly in love with each other? If so, is it equally mutual, or do you think one of them loves the other more?

I think they BOTH are, they BOTH know, and they are holding out til they are no longer working in their current jobs. I'd say Donna is more head over heals than Josh, just due to her style of romanticism......but I think Josh has her pretty far under his skin........far enough that Amy never had a chance, really. Even if Amy hadn't been so unrealistically gung ho.

2. Other than the subtle signs of two people having respect, concern, and dedication for one another, has there ever been a "close call" where they really did get close to hooking up or revealing their feelings?

There was an episode where he said "If you had been in an accident, I wouldn't stop for a beer........" and she responds "If you were in an accident, I wouldn't stop for red lights......." and they stand there excanging glances for a couple seconds before getting back to business.........second season, episode "17 people" I believe............

Also there was an episode where Donna is constantly pressing Josh to ask Joey Lucas out during a night of polling returns........the episode ends shortly after Joey enlightens Josh as to why Donna would be doing such a thing......and since Josh spends the entire episode wondering why, of all people..... :devil .....Donna would be pressing him that way.......I 'd say it is idicated he feels about her a certain way and felt kind of emotionally betrayed by her doing the opposite of what he figured the reality was..........

3. I know C.J. implied to Donna that it's obvious she loves Josh, and one time Amy hit Donna with the blatant question, "Are you in love with Josh?" but has anyone ever said anything to Josh, implying they knew how he allegedly feels about her?

Amy asks him before they start dating.......... "Are you dating your assistant? ....... I'd heard you might be?"

That's the most blatant one that comes to my mind.........

4. Do you think Josh & Donna will ever get together? Do you think that would be a good thing, or would their relationship jump the shark?

Ignoring all the nonsense series writings after Aaron Sorkin left after season 4, I'd say they are a lock to get together sooner or later.....since they both feel, both know that both feel.........all that is lacking is circumstance.......unless one dies of course......otherwise........It's a LOCK.

5. Who do you think should be President after Bartlet (Santos {Jimmy Smits}, Vinick {Alan Alda}, or someone else)?

I'd have liked to hav seen what Hoines would have done......though he WAS rather a suspect about his intentions........he seemed SOMEwhat honorable......especially in regards to certain peoples alcohol and marital problems.........

7. Do the West Wing DVDs have any really good special features to them? I'm especially interested in information and behind-the-scenes footage of the sets. I don't think Blockbuster has them for rent. Is there a source, other than Netflix, for renting them and/or buying them *super* cheap?

There are some decent amounts of deleted scenes....nothing ground breaking, but definately interesting.

Some interviews with people involved in production, music, camera work, etc......I think there was a Props one too.

38 to 40 dollars is about as low as it goes from a reliable on line source (Amazon or Buy.com )..........retail stores are typically same or 5 or 10 dollars more......though they sometimes have New Release deals that might beat the 40 dollar online prices.....but those only happen once usually. Season sets don't discount very often.......but Best Buy and Circuit City are prime possibilities for such sales.

Considering list price is 60, I am usually not to unhappy to pay 40 per season for West Wing......especially since seasons of B5 run $80 and Star Trek The Next Generation around $100.

I've got seasons 1 - 3 and have watched all 3 twice now. It IS worth it........even if only to be able to rewind and hear a good phrase over again............"I am the Lord your God. Thou shalt worship no other God before me. Boy those were the days, huh."






[/quote]

 

[2aMageing]

Re: Questions about West Wing (mostly re: Josh+Don

Okay, now that I've gotten at least one response, I guess I should answer a few of my own questions:

2) In an earlier episode, there is a story about how Donna came to work for Josh during the Bartlett campaign, left, and then came back all because of an old boyfriend. It had something to do with an old boyfriend stopping to get a beer with friends on the way to the hospital to see Donna after an accident (or something like that). Josh says if Donna was in the hospital, he wouldn't stop for a beer. Donna immediately responded that if Josh were in the hospital, she wouldn't stop for red lights. Granted, if she meant that literally, she'd probably be joining him in the hospital along with other car crash victims, but as a throwaway line, it was a cute statement of affection (which, of course, was not followed up on).


4) They might get together before the end of the series. The major barrier has been that they worked together. Her leaving was the main motivation that pushed Josh to leave the WH and campaign with Santos. And with her in Russell's campaign, you're right, they're too busy. However, as soon as the election is over, when they don't work together, when they're not opponents any more, when they have a minute to breath, I think that's when they need to go for it. I'm hoping for one major scene with a big build-up. In the middle of a celebration (or concession speech) they both realize, it's time. They rush through traffic and/or crowds, nothing stands in their way, they gotta do this right now, the sound is replaced by sappy music, they finally get to one another, they don't say anything, nothing at all, they just see each other, pause, and then go for it, no looking back... Even if their relationship would "jump the shark" (ala Sam & Diane, Niles & Daphne, the two characters in Moonlighting, etc.), it would still be worth it for a scene that good.

I guess I REALLY should read ahead before responding in a thread.......


Oh and thank GOODNESS Bravo has this show......it was one of their earlier West Wing marathons that let me see that it was more than a plain jane political sitcom...........it was....and really....WAS........all about the writing.........pace, humor, parallel stories ..........great characters.........I can't believe Toby's exwife turned him down............even after changing a major character (though not too much) with the exit of Sam, it still clicked........I am religious about the first 4 seasons.....they are perhaps the best writing of ANY format I have ever heard/read ..............but season 5 was noothing like the REAL West Wing.....the edge was gone, the storys took weak directions, EVERYTHING.....right down to the camara work, lightig, and makeup seemed to be off.......I don't know HOW they could have lost ALL of the stuff that worked.
I may never see much of the following seasons, tough it was cool to see Cole in the mix, even if appearantly just a place holder.........seemed like potential there to surprise people and emerge as a force.......but it soundsl like they aren't going to play that card.

I may just huddle up in the corner with seasons 1 through 4 on DVD and pretend the rest of the world does not exist.

Because there is NO WAY Jed and Leo split ways from each other(people who have known each other that long and been through THAT much just don't go that way, not realistic, and I REALLY hate artificial drama) .........their bond was one of the corner stones of the quality of the astories and character interactions...........NO WAY. That might be the biggest reason I can't take anything current seriously. Ah well.

 

[Ninja_Squirrel]

Re: Questions about West Wing (mostly re: Josh+Don

2) I just remembered another neat moment. Late in season 5, when the WW has a "crash" because of a possible environmental hazard, that's when C.J. makes the comment to Donna about her staying in her current job only because of Josh, not the job itself. When the crash is lifted, Donna almost goes back to work. Josh bellows out to her, and for a brief moment she cracks a smile like she's giddy that she gets the chance to do something for Josh. But, then she remembers C.J.'s comment, and even though she's right outside the office and can hear Josh just fine, she gets her purse and coat and quietly slips out before he notices.

That, of course, led to her exploring other job opportunities in season 6, but what I liked was that brief smile. It's almost like she was saying in her head, "Oh, goody, Josh is calling out for me. I get to do something for Josh. I love doing things for Josh. I hope he needs me to stay another hour or two." Unfortunately, the next moment she realizes, "Wait, I've been doing things for *Josh* for over seven years. I gotta get a real job." Then again, maybe she thought, "If we stop working together, maybe we can become something more." Bittersweet moment.

I think Josh has her pretty far under his skin........far enough that Amy never had a chance, really

And thank goodness for that. Is it just me or is Amy a real <censored> unpleasant person </censored>? That deep, nasally voice, 10 tons of snide smirk and attitude. Ugh, I could do without her. I can see why the First Lady picked Amy as her Chief of Staff. Those two are made for each other.

I am religious about the first 4 seasons.....they are perhaps the best writing of ANY format I have ever heard/read ..............but season 5 was noothing like the REAL West Wing.....the edge was gone, the storys took weak directions, EVERYTHING.....right down to the camara work, lightig, and makeup seemed to be off.......I don't know HOW they could have lost ALL of the stuff that worked.

I'm not sure I've watched enough to notice that, but I do know it can happen to a show. I saw it happen with Buffy: The Vampire Slayer. Season 5 was my favorite season of Buffy, but with the exception of a few eps, seasons 6 & 7 sucked. I didn't bother getting the last two seasons on DVD. In fact, my interest is greatly waning, even for the first 5 seasons, and I'm about ready to put those DVDs on eBay.

Because there is NO WAY Jed and Leo split ways from each other...

I really like Leo. Most of the staff stays frazzled; it doesn't take much to stress them out or get them into nitpick mode. But, Leo stays calm more often. I think his character is experienced enough at politics that he knows the country will go on. Not every bad decision, every misquote, every political setback is the end of the world.

.it was....and really....WAS........all about the writing.........pace, humor, parallel stories ..........great characters

I actually have a love-hate relationship with the writing. I do like the intellectual nature of the show and the fast pace. However, sometimes the show is *so* intellectual that the characters come off as arrogant or as knowing so much that the average audience member can't keep up. And sometimes the dialogue is *so* fast, that it seems un-natural. Does *anybody* in real life really talk that way.

I've become a late-blooming, occasionally viewer of Gilmore Girls. I guess I always avoided it because I assumed it to be too girly, but now I know that's not the case (a little too late though; they're in season 5 already). Anyway, GG has this same advantage/problem. It's a super witty show with excellent writing and snappy dialogue. But sometimes it's *so* fast paced, that again I think, "Who talks like that?" I've noticed it especially with conversations that involve Emily, Lorelai, and Rory all at the same time.

Another thing that annoyed me about West Wing writing, regardless of the pacing, was how people responded with the word "yeah" way too often. I think they did that because they always know what the other character is talking about. They're all in the loop, they all know politics, so short answers (like "yeah") is a conversational shorthand. But there are lots of times where the characters may be psychically understanding each other, but I could use a little translation. Ironically, I think that aspect has actually gotten better in season 5 *AND* I'm actually glad Rob Lowe did leave the show a few seasons ago because his character Sam seemed to be the most guilty of the intellectualism, the rapid speech, and the overuse of the word "yeah".

All things considered, The West Wing must be doing something right. Schedule conflicts with Angel and Alias made me stop watching the show a few years ago, but now I'm watching West Wing again and taping Alias.

 

[2aMageing]

Re: Questions about West Wing (mostly re: Josh+Don

I can't speak to the concepts they talk about as being a problem since I like learning new stuff and I kinda just go with it, when they are talking over my head, until I can think about it more later on.

But I definately agree that both West Wing and Gilmore Girls dialoge can and DOES get to be too stylized and sort of artistic and ends up being counterproductive to keeping the scenes in "reality". But I think it is the price one pays if one enjoys the style inspite of it's negative effects on the story telling. I enjoy the dialoge most in both shows......though I couldn't enjoy eitherwithout some good characters too. And sometimes they do "lose" the character while trying to be funny, or while trying to do things with story. I imagine it's a tough line to walk between "keeping it real" and making it entertaining.

As for Amy.....I didn't really mind her so much........til she drops Josh's phone in the soup......AND cuts the phone cord.........and then tells him not to take it personally. I HATE it when people who play to win tell others who care about the rules to "not take it personally". She lost me from that episode on. As for Dr. Bartlett, I like her a fair bit until she burns bridges with her husband during the kidnapping..........another character shift that I think was not withion the realm of reason and done more for casting and drama purposes.

Leo is fav of mine too. He sometimes showed his more military leanings on choices of actions, but oterwise he was the stabilizing influence they needed to keep all the mental talent and extremity in check.

As for Buffy......I don't know that they ever really found a groove. They had a slightly different style every season it always seemed to me. The last two seasons were admittedly thin, though I did like the Zander - Willow mix near the end of season 6. And Giles flashing some serious energy skills was cool too. I felt 5 was perhaps the worst season after 7........Glory was obnoxious and there really was not much going on related to her......all the worthwhile stories happened on the side. But you are correct, the Buffy series does not seem to hold up well to rewatching.......for somereason......???.


Oh and the only thing they use more often than Yeah on the West Wing was ............ok. I know Sorkin was using as sort of an anticlimactic humor thing.......but he had multiple characters use it (a pet peeve of mine is hearing duplicate speaking styles from different people)......and just too many times over the first 4 seasons. It should have been like Josh's .......REALLY? .........humorous bit........use it once, twice, maybe three times.......but beyond that, let it be.

And I don't think that they always say "Yeah" when they are on the same wavelength......I think they pretty obviously don't always get what one of the others is pointing out to them......and they say Yeah as a way of being supportive without really "getting" the point of view one of the other main people is on about on a given day.

 

[Demon]

I remembr hearing somewhere that Gary Cole will be leaving as he is staring in his own series.

He's the lead in a new series which should be shown in the summer. The title keeps changing, but the latest I heard was that it will be called 'Wanted', with Gary playing "the head of an elite team of crime fighters from various federal and local law enforcement agencies that form a covert, undercover strike force to help track down L.A.'s 100 most-wanted fugitives."

Unfortunately, they wanted his hair short for the new series, hence the godawful haircut inflicted on the VP in West Wing in the middle of the latest season. I like the fact that it's so bad it's even mentioned by Russell's rival, Santos, played by Jimmy Smits

 

[Ninja_Squirrel]

Re: Questions about West Wing (mostly re: Josh+Don

Oh and the only thing they use more often than Yeah on the West Wing was ............ok.

Good point. You're right; that always bugged me too.

I know Sorkin was using as sort of an anticlimactic humor thing.......but he had multiple characters use it (a pet peeve of mine is hearing duplicate speaking styles from different people)

Me too. There are even a few minor instances of this being true in Babylon 5, but it's kept to an acceptable minimum.

I'll have to admit, that's one good thing about Buffy. Each character had their own strong, yet unique speaking style. Sure there are some similarities, but I think that comes more from geographical similarities (all the young characters are from California). Xander was smartass, Willow was stuttery, Cordelia was conceited, Oz was concise and stoic, Giles was intellectual and British, etc.

Another common trend in West Wing speech is the rattling off of statistics and historical facts. Granted, people in goverment need to know the numbers for things and most, if not all, are probably pretty adept at historical knowledge, but sometimes it seems like everyone knows every exact percentage of everything and the exact year and location something happened that is comparable to the moment at hand.

I can understand if Bartlett has to be that way to achieve his image as a geek who'd be the best history professor in the world if he weren't a politician, but sometimes even Donna and Charlie rattle off the facts. I wouldn't be surprised if Carol or Debra have done that once or twice.

 

[2aMageing]

Re: Questions about West Wing (mostly re: Josh+Don

I'll have to admit, that's one good thing about Buffy. Each character had their own strong, yet unique speaking style. Sure there are some similarities, but I think that comes more from geographical similarities (all the young characters are from California). Xander was smartass, Willow was stuttery, Cordelia was conceited, Oz was concise and stoic, Giles was intellectual and British, etc.

Well there was a sort of common pool of Scoobyish sayings......but considering the group dynamic, it fit just fine.....and probably covered the writing for overlaps too. I would imagine it is just about the hardest thing about writing dialoge, creating unique characters, creating uniqe speaking styles for each, and keeping them consistant and separate. Pretty tough when often one person/perspective is the source for such a plural creation.

Another common trend in West Wing speech is the rattling off of statistics and historical facts. Granted, people in goverment need to know the numbers for things and most, if not all, are probably pretty adept at historical knowledge, but sometimes it seems like everyone knows every exact percentage of everything and the exact year and location something happened that is comparable to the moment at hand.

Yeah, this bugged me too the first time throug the series.......but after I caught an episode where Bartlett is meeting with other economists, and he rattles off the something amount on another something amount 7 years ago........but than when Leo says how impressed he was that Jed knew that, the President responds.." You mean I was right???" And Leo goes, "Ahhhhh, I knew it" or something like that, combined with Ainsly Hayes ripping Sam on Capitol Beat about the location of .....Kirkwood, I think it was........I feel better about the info they spout off the top of their heads......since I think that they are not always TRUELY in possession of the actual info, but rather want to seem confident for the purposes of leadership.

Kinda like the Star Trek Next Generation episode when Picard and Dr. Crusher are mind linked by devices and he looks at a map for a minute and then says......."Yes, we need to go this way." And the Doctor calls him on it, sensing that he really didn't know, and they talk about the practice of projecting confidence, even, and perhaps especially, when you have little, so as to make others feel stronger about their efforts in the overall action.

So I chalk it up to then wanting to keep others confidence in them, or in the case of the assistants, create confidence in them. I just asssume they don't know jack, unless I agree and have knowledge that confirms their spiels already.

I did like the knowledge they cranked out in the episode Isaac and Ishamael. That was a good show, even inspite of it not being within the series arc. And I found it to be reasonble for them to know most of it, even the kid who quoted Ben Franklin.

Some people REALLY do know a wide range and to some depth. But the external reality is that it all sounds like bull to the observer, regardless of whether it is coming out of a BSer or out of someone speaking from knowledge,. So I just take it and move on. If it checks out down the road, that much cooler it be.

 

[PsionTen]

Re: Questions about West Wing (mostly re: Josh+Don

But I definately agree that both West Wing and Gilmore Girls dialoge can and DOES get to be too stylized and sort of artistic and ends up being counterproductive to keeping the scenes in "reality".

To me, it seems that highly stylized dialogue in TV has been noticeable ever since Quentin Tarantino and Kevin Smith first gained widespread popularity. The problem with it nowadays, as you just alluded to, is that its now become a means unto itself. It seems that writers are more concerned with writing this type of dialogue than using it to further develop the characters. As a result, you get something like Dawson's Creek -- a show that was supposedly about the angst and growing pains of a couple of high school kids, which quickly became a show about pretty mouthpieces speaking in a manner that no one else on Earth speaks ... especially not a couple of high school kids.

The thing that sets Gilmore Girls apart from the rest of the pack -- even the West Wing -- is that GG, on some level at least, is aware of what its doing and is almost parodying all those other shows. I always get that feeling when, for example, Lorilei and Rory do their banter thing in front of someone who's new to their universe and that lost expression crawls across their face. They even did a promo for WB a year or so ago where they made fun of the whole Gilmore-speak ... a couple of fans, speaking in GG dialogue, wanted the stars autographs and they couldn't understand a word they said.