Rangers=Sardaukar=Fremen Fredaykin=Imperial Stormtroopers=Section 31?

[AngelSummers]

I'm not talking about code of conduct here. We all know that the rest of the elite forces of various universes [including our real life SAS] are esentially bad guys, with the explicit purpose of maintaining tyranies that have no right to restrain freedom. Stormtroopers are feared for their ferocity and no-mercy attitude. They maintain the Emperor's iron grip.

Imperial Sardaukar of the Dune universe are the Padisha Emperor's shock troops. They're fighting prowess is ten times better than any of the great Houses, resulting in an aliance called the Landsraad among the Houses. The Emperor's Sardaukar was the one who had a main hand in disposing House Atreides. The Atreides were helpless agaisnt them. Only the Fremen, desert natives could stand and fight the Sardaukar. Both maintain the power of the Emperor and Paul Atreides repectively.

Section 31.... enough said. They're the Federation Gestapo and ISA.

All this forces, including the Rangers, are reknown for their fighting prowess. Stormtroopers are extremely disciplined, Sardaukar and Fremen excel in hand weapons, Section 31 almost certainly are more brutal than the Starfleet softies we're so accustomed to seeing.

What i want to ask is, based on observations on the new movie, are the Anla'shok as powerful as the afore mentioned forces? Marcus Cole had the uncanny ability to appear and disappear when he wants to, excels in the Denn Bok, and displays intelligence as well. Remember Ceremonies of Light and Dark? He knocked out an entire room of thugs.

Not to mention the Rangers' excellent flying of the White Stars, all the more better because the White Stars are so small. [big firepower or not]

But let's focus on groud combat. Would the Rangers have the prowess equivalent of the other 4 forces? Would they're army be the equal of any race in the ISA, Earthforce or otherwise?

After all, Earthforce doesn't have meditation in its curriculum. That's why they're soldiers are unfocused jarheads.

Passage summary: Are the Rangers fighting prowess make them equivalant of the other 4 forces?

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

They are ordinary people. If they have any advantage, it is mental. Rangers are not conscripted or hired, they are selected from volunteers. They fight for a purpose. Besides following orders, they are expected to understand their purpose.

Knowing the harm which may come from directionless fighting, Valen designed the Rangers to remember why they sometimes have to fight.

Other than that, Rangers are ordinary soldiers, with training slightly above average. A well-motivated Earth Force soldier or Minbari warrior can easily beat a single Ranger. But on the large scale, Rangers are highly motivated and dedicated to their cause. A cause they usually understand and agree with. Not all armies can say that about their people.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 02, 2002).]

 

[Tigara]

One thing that is kinda annoying to me is that I personally haven't seen any other rangers matching Marcus' skill level. Was Marcus a one in a million or have the other rangers just not been getting the same amount of opportunities?(or am i just blind and have missed something. Either way an explination would be very helpful) By the way who are these Section 31 guys? Are they just starfleet's S.S.?(I haven't seen much DS9)

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Sheridan:Are you sure we can't jump
Lennierositive
Sheridan:Then we have a problem
Lennier:No $h!t Sherlock
Sheridan:RUN FOR IT!!!!
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[Recoil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Stormtroopers are extremely disciplined <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are these the same Stormtroopers who can be running in a pack of 15 to 20, only a few yards behind Han Solo, and ALL of them keep missing him? Stormtroopers should never be in the same sentance as 'elite' or 'accuracy' in my opinion

. I'm not sure we ever saw a Stormtrooper land a hit in the entire Star Wars trilogy

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

 

[Tigara]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I'm not sure we ever saw a Stormtrooper land a hit in the entire Star Wars trilogy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah but remember thefirst scene of A New Hope. They ripped through the rebels on the blockade runner with minimal losses. It just seems however they can hit everything in sight but our heroes and ewoks. Go figure.

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Sheridan:Are you sure we can't jump
Lennierositive
Sheridan:Then we have a problem
Lennier:No $h!t Sherlock
Sheridan:RUN FOR IT!!!!
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[CaptJodan]

I have to answer this, just cause I find it kinda humorous. I'm not dissing any one program here, I happen to enjoy some of them, but it's just fun to comment.

Stormtroopers: Nuff said. Outnumbered or not, a bunch of carebears taking on, as the Emperor himself put it "An entire leigon of my best troops", and getting their....insert word...handed to them...well, I just wouldn't say they're the ideal fighting force for most armies, even with Ep4's beginning. (In my opinion, the losses they took boarding a Senator's ship, which would have minimally trained staff for defense like they were, were average at best, but then that's me.)

Section 31: Elite? Hmm....I thought that Red Squad was supposed to be the elite in terms of fighting forces. This might offend some, but I always thought Section 31 was a...well, a rip from Section 1, IE La Femme Nikita....an anti-insert terrorist/government/general badguys type of organization. To me, 31 was not so much a fighting force as it was an intel gatherer, and manipulator from the inside, not an actual brute force fighting army. I'd have to go with Red Squad as the Feds best, as there hasn't been many other options for them.

As for the Rangers....well, as others have said, they are normal people who believe strongly in a cause. I think it is more mental than the physical. No offense to Dylan

but David Martel isn't exactly a buff guy. Brute force wouldn't be his strength, but I think what we'd see if it went to series is that he fights with his mind. (G'Kar style...Mind and Heart) Sure, he can wield a pike, they all can, but not everyone is cut out for ground combat. As for the rangers as a whole, again, they're like NATO troops. (A bit more respected, though)

It's still a hard question to answer. So far, JMS hasn't given us a whole lot of information on them. They've been semi shrouded in mystery, and we only see them wielding a pike. I would guess that they are capable of using longer ranged weapons, but only a series could answer that one.

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It's like I've always said, you can get more with a kind word and a 2 by 4 than you can with just a kind word.

 

[Tigara]

Thanks CaptJodan for finally clearing up what section 31 is. And although I don't 100% agree with you on stormtroopers I do admit their losses were unusally high when fighting a group of poorly equipped rebels on a consular ship. Au revoir.


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Sheridan:Are you sure we can't jump
Lennierositive
Sheridan:Then we have a problem
Lennier:No $h!t Sherlock
Sheridan:RUN FOR IT!!!!
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[bakana]

Well, I don't recall we ever Saw that many rangers fighting.
We saw Tennier, A Trainee.

And Marcus was beaten almost to Death by Neroon, so he's Not the "best that ever swung a pike".

And one Large misconception I saw above:
Rangers are Not an "army" in the sense of going out to fight large battles.
They are more like a Law Enforcement agency crossed with an Intelligence service.
They do not Enforce the Peace.
They Create the Peace.

Ranger training is based on the Individual, not on group dynamics, except aboard ship.

Rangers are chosen for their dedication to the Third Principle of Sentient Life.
The willingness to Sacrifice themselves for the greater good, for service, to save the life of another, etc.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[Tigara]

So the reason Marcus seems better than all other Rangers is because he got the most screen time? That works. But what is section 31?

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Sheridan:Are you sure we can't jump
Lennierositive
Sheridan:Then we have a problem
Lennier:No $h!t Sherlock
Sheridan:RUN FOR IT!!!!
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[Chris O'Farrel]

Section 31 is when you get right down to it, an illegal organisation inside the UFP, somewhat similar to Bereu 13 in B5. They claim they are an offical and sanctioned organisation inside Starfleet Inteligence but from what I have seen they look to be more an exclusive club. Basicly they recruit people who basicly know that in order to protect the UFP from its enemies and even itself, 'someone has to do the dirty work', that although they may hold themselves to a nice moral standard, the powers around them won't and someone has to be able to respond in kind.

They have technology that appears to be cutting edge, more advanced then the UFP in general. Where they get these is a mystory, but I am willing to bet the high and key people in the supply and such industries are section 31, who divert the resources quietly.

They operate under their own code with basicly one mission. "We seak out threats to the Federation and deal with them". They investigated Bashier when they thought he was a Dominion agent. They were the ones who used the bioweapon on the Dominion shapeshifter leaders to destroy the dominion.

Basicly, they are NOTHING like the Rangers. The Rangers are an elite army, basicly equivilant to special forces. They are also equiped with the most powerful and technologicaly advanced ships in existence, operating as the armed forces of the ISA, totaly in the open and totaly accountable through the chain of command from that Council we see in LOTR, through to the ISA President and current Entil'Zha (who I beleive hold equal authority over them).

Dito Imperial Stormtroopers who again are just the elite forces, not a shadow org. The Imperials shadow org is someting like the Imperial intelegence "Destab" department (destablisation). Basicly their mission is to "Take the fabric that binds a society together....and unwind it". Now note that this departement is considered by the EMPIRE who blow up planets for kicks to be rather excessive and horifying...

Oh and Red squad is NOTHING like the Federations elite forces. They are simply the top cadets in the accademy. They are nothing to normal line officers. The DS9 episode "Valient" rather clearly proved that when they were getting drubbed in engagements that normal officers would not have the first problem with, chearfuly rewrote their mission orders to a suicide mission and did it chearing....


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[This message has been edited by Chris O'Farrel (edited February 03, 2002).]

 

[AngelSummers]

OK, enough said about Section 31. Shouldn't have compared them to the Rangers on grounds of brute strength. The only thing in common with the Ranges is their intelligence gathering capabilities. Like it or not, Rangers excel at that job. And so do Section 31, base on their capturing Doctor Bashir, and later inserting a virus through Odo. Rangers did a good job on Shadow activities as far as I know.

About the Imperial Stormtroopers, well, after getting drubbed by a THOUSAND Ewoks and a small rebelk task force, yeah, I wouldn't be exactly be impressed with them. But remember When Luke and Obi-Wan investigated the destroyed Jawa Sand crawler in Episode 4? Obi Wan mentioned the shots and burn marks were precise and too accurate for Sand people, as they were made out to be. Besides, stormtroopers are brainwashed recruits. In the Star War universe neveertheless, they are considered the best shock troops in the galaxy. All races fear Stormtroopers.

Other elite forces are: War Droids and Dark Troopers. Only appeared in the game Rebellion.

Rangers I believe are still above the standard army offered by Earthforce. They're the jack of all trades and no Earthforce recruit does that. They excel in hand to hand combat, pikes and god knows other weapons and starship piloting. Energuy weapons I think we should assume they know since no army with its right mind would train with only hand weapons.

As Lennier put it, the only thing separating them from any normal para-military force is their training. Meditation, concentration, as well as a firm indoctrination in the sacredness of life curtesy of Jeffrey Sinclair [past and present if you ge what i mean] give them a sense of purpose in their jobs. Enough for them to voluntarily sacrifice themselves even when they know its a suicide mission. Remember Ericson? Sheridan TOLD him to go into a suicide mission. He accepted. Because he knew the cause was just, and he was willing to die for the greater good.

I love the concept of the Rangers. As someone put it, they're really some kind of warrior monks. i believe they just had a right dose of spiritual training that enabled them to fight without becoming fanatics or losing their sense of purposes. That's the problem with current military structure. They teach you to kill, but neglect to teach the after effects of killing. Only a real psycho would do it without remorse.

If only our militaries put meditation in their curriculum. It would help enhance awareness in the soldiers and therefore increase battle efficiency. Hell, may even be better than outright punishment.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Warrior monks...This would suggest some kind of martial arts training. Weither it be old martial arts from Earth or some type of fighting from Minbar.

We know they get trained in using the pike as we see Marcus used one though out his time on B5 and David uses one in the training room, but I was wondering about the martial arts because David basicly breaks into a streat brawl with Kafta. I would have thought he would have been trained in something better.

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We are Rangers
We walk in the dark places no one will enter
We do not break away from combat
We Stand on the bridge and no one may pass
We do not retreat, whatever the reason
We live for the one, We die for the one

 

[Tigara]

Just a quick question. Aren't the crimson clad Emperor's Royal Guard the Imperial elite?

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Sheridan:Are you sure we can't jump
Lennierositive
Sheridan:Then we have a problem
Lennier:No $h!t Sherlock
Sheridan:RUN FOR IT!!!!
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[Mr. Bester]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tigara:
Just a quick question. Aren't the crimson clad Emperor's Royal Guard the Imperial elite?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No they're just the ceremonial guards derived from the Senate Guards in Phantom Menace.



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[Tigara]

Excerpt from "A Guide to the Star Wars Universe"

"Only the most promising stormtroopers_selected for their size strngth intelligence and loyalty-were chosen for this duty. They were trained in the use of a wide range of weapons and unarmed combat styles and conditioned to obey the Emperors will and protect him with their very lives...They were whatever the Emperor wanted them to be-soldiers assasins bodyguards."
That makes them Imp. elite right?

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Sheridan:Are you sure we can't jump
Lennierositive
Sheridan:Then we have a problem
Lennier:No $h!t Sherlock
Sheridan:RUN FOR IT!!!!
Downbelow Sound Archive

 

[Mr. Bester]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tigara:
Excerpt from "A Guide to the Star Wars Universe"

"Only the most promising stormtroopers_selected for their size strngth intelligence and loyalty-were chosen for this duty. They were trained in the use of a wide range of weapons and unarmed combat styles and conditioned to obey the Emperors will and protect him with their very lives...They were whatever the Emperor wanted them to be-soldiers assasins bodyguards."
That makes them Imp. elite right?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No offense, but these guides also say that the Emperor came back to life, that he has a three eyed mutant son, that there are two sith orders and that besides Vader and Palpatine there were a whole string of dark siders. So I wouldn't exactly call them accurate.


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[Tigara]

Ah touche. I'm just going to quit while I retain some dignity.

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Sheridan:Are you sure we can't jump
Lennierositive
Sheridan:Then we have a problem
Lennier:No $h!t Sherlock
Sheridan:RUN FOR IT!!!!
Downbelow Sound Archive

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
No offense, but these guides also say that the Emperor came back to life, that he has a three eyed mutant son, that there are two sith orders and that besides Vader and Palpatine there were a whole string of dark siders. So I wouldn't exactly call them accurate.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its in the novels which are considered offical. So why would it not be accuarate?


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[Mr. Bester]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xzyl:

Its in the novels which are considered offical. So why would it not be accuarate?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the novels are free for George Lucas to contradict. For example in the OFFICIAL NOVELIZATION of ANH, it says that Kenobi wasn't lying to Luke when he said Vader killed Anakin. In the ESTB novelization, it says Boba Fett wears the armor of a group of warrior defeated by the Jedi during the Clone Wars, but in AOTC we find out there it was untrue. In the ROTJ novelization, Owen was Kenobi's brother which has been deemed officially untrue by the sw.com and the AOTC movie. In the TPM novelization Qui-Gonn's master was four hundred years old which is impossible.

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[Deviot]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
No they're just the ceremonial guards derived from the Senate Guards in Phantom Menace.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well sorta they based of them yes.. But the emperors personal guard were much better trained etc.

the senate guard in Phantom Menace was more for show.



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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au