Real-life President Clark

GKarsEye · Feb 20, 2002

Oh please. One of the reasons 9/11 happened is because the world ignored the build-up of terrorist recruiting and resources.

The Iranian government and businessmen support terrorists- financially and logistically. Are we to ignore that? Or is it better to be nicey-nice with an oppressive theocratical government that has proven to be nothing more than a pain-in-the-ass for the entire civilised world?

If the president covers up his intentions with politeness, people say he isn't honest (like Clinton). When he is honest, they say he isn't polite enough.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It pulled the rug right out from under them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aren't you overestimating the power of one speech just a wee bit, there? I doubt that one statement would undermine an entire political movement in Iran.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

channe · Feb 20, 2002

GKarsEye -

The Arab world has a long memory. The Arab world does not like the United States. And for a number of pretty valid reasons.

George W. Bush must either be changing his speeches on the spot - or he has one extremely dumb scriptwriter. Anyone with a TINY grasp of Middle Eastern history KNOWS that you don't go preaching a "new Crusade" against the Arabs.

I mean, look what happened the last time the Western world preached a Crusade... the real, wholesale destruction of Muslim Jerusalem, the slaughter of almost every Muslim in the city, and much of the surrounding area (and a shitload of Jews and Jewish settlements on the way, too...)

bin Laden is to Islam what Jerry Falwell is to Christianity. Not. The. Real. Thing. But, if you preach a new crusade against the Islamic world - not just bin Laden, but the entire Islamic world, Iraq, Iran, their allies, etc., there's gonna be a lot of trouble.

W's rhetoric is problematic at best. I agree that Iran, Iraq, and the like supporting terrorism is a major problem. I'm studying just war theology right now, so my opinions are still germinating in my brain. There are better ways to say these things. W just isn't saying it in a good way.

I mean. Axis of evil. New Crusade. Jeez - was he dropped on his head as a child, or did he not have history lessons?

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "Last one to kill a bad guy buys the beer." -lost in space

[This message has been edited by channe (edited February 20, 2002).]

hypatia · Feb 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:
Never mind Yugoslav Ex-Presidents.

We have our Own president starting to sound a Lot like Clarke right now.

Dubya has managed to piss off almost every other govt in the world during the last few days.
He's set international relations back 20 years and almost eliminated the unity the Terrorists brought to the free world.

The Arrogance coming out of Washinton lately is unbelievable.

Of course, if he can get someone pissed off enough to Attack us again, maybe they think people will stop talking about EnRon...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate to admit it, but in some ways the 9/11 attack really helped the Bush presidency. It gave them a theme to stand behind that most Americans agreed with. If the economy were not in the dumps, I think "W" would be a very happy camper right now.

The whole 9/11 attack gave him justifications to do virtually everything he wanted to do. And, by the way, our civil rights are being eroded away very quietly and behind the scenes. Once they have been taken away, we will NEVER get them back again, I'm afraid.

And am I the only person who thinks the bombing campaign has just gottena little bit ridiculous at this point (in Afghanistan, I mean)?

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"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind

"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

hypatia · Feb 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jade Jaguar:
Hypatia, I posted a long post with a list of countries where we had military bases, and weren't wanted, or were kicked out. Few want an 800 lb gorilla in their living room.

I agree with Bakana about w's arrogance. Painting Iran as the axis of evil at a time when the people, through elections, are trying to get control of their country from the Mullahs, and liberalize it, was the dumbest thing he's done yet. It pulled the rug right out from under them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure it made some of them wonder exactly who will make the better ally. Who wants to "become more like" a country whose leader is threatening you? "Do what I say OR ELSE" has never been a very smart political tactic, IMHO.

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"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind

"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

channe · Feb 20, 2002

Hypatia -

I've seen the same things you have been seeing. Our civil rights, eroded away in the name of "national security." And we, of course, to protect ourselves from the terrorists, are swallowing every bit of it, beginning with the wiretaps and the armed soldiers in the airports. More.

We've begun, but where does it end?

This is the way it begins, folks... a quote from Z'ha'dum: "What is past... is also future."

Our Constitution is pretty damned solid. Our democracy has lasted longer than other democracies just because the Founding Fathers were pretty smart cookies and put in a system of checks and balances. I'm simplifying, here - but we have a damned good system, here. No system is free from corruption, no system is free from abuse - but we have a damned good system, all in all.

But the Constitution, the Bill of Rights - they aren't infallible. And one of my greatest fears is that someone will someday find a way to rip them into pieces.

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "Last one to kill a bad guy buys the beer." -lost in space

GKarsEye · Feb 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The Arab world has a long memory. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "Arab world" can suck my big fat American ass. How dare they bitch about events that took place 700 years ago while breeding terrorists that threaten us now?

We need a little perspective here, folks. It's shocking to me that people can get so worked up over a word here and there, and ignore the threat of violence and destruction perpetrated by these governments and fanatics.

What do you all think we should do, sit them all down over a nice cup of coffee and ask them politely to please stop training suicidal maniacs to blow us up?

How many more buildings need to collapse before people understand the global threat of these people?

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

channe · Feb 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
The "Arab world" can suck my big fat American ass. How dare they bitch about events that took place 700 years ago while breeding terrorists that threaten us now?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can think whatever you want. Personally, I kind of agree with you. But we're Americans. Our country has been around for, oh, what - just over three hundred years? Some BUILDINGS in the Arab world have been standing for three times longer! GE, it's not a question of HOW DARE THEY, it's a question of THEY DO, and we have to ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, and find a BETTER WAY! I'm not advocating uninvolvement or pacifism. I'm advocating a return to an understanding that for some other cultures, words carry more of a meaning, more of an oomph, more of an IMPACT, than they do here...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We need a little perspective here, folks. It's shocking to me that people can get so worked up over a word here and there, and ignore the threat of violence and destruction perpetrated by these governments and fanatics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you're really understanding, here. Take World War I, for example.

It percolated. It grew within the foreign policies of the countries that would soon get involved. It sizzled on the stove, and the tension grew and grew and grew and grew - until ONE ACTION shattered it all. Many today would argue that the spark that set off WWI was the assassination of an otherwise unremarkable archduke.

Dubya dear is setting off little sparks everywhere...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What do you all think we should do, sit them all down over a nice cup of coffee and ask them politely to please stop training suicidal maniacs to blow us up?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God, no. I agree that something has to be done. It's just that our president decided to go about it in the wrong way, preach a new crusade, call them all "evil" and go on his merry way killing civilians in Afghanistan.

You have to understand that the words "evil" and "crusade" carry a deeper meaning in Islam than they do in America. Americans can just swallow it. But the Islamic mindset is much, much different. WE CAN'T IGNORE THAT IF WE ARE TO WIN THE WAR AGAINST TERRORISM...

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "Last one to kill a bad guy buys the beer." -lost in space

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 20, 2002

Words have to be chosen carefully. Every word is a potential weapon, one which can be turned against you. Presidents should simply know that. Write their speeches with care... or let them be written by those who know better.

Because a misplaced word may mean an alliance which never formed. If analysts believe that Iraq is unlikely to be cooperative, it is of essential importance to gain the cooperation of Iran -- with means that don't backfire.

During the last five or so years, Iran has very slowly drifted towards a less clerical and more secular model. No, of course it is still a clerical state, and has several laws/traditions which violate human rights. But the situation has been improving.

By calling Iran the "axis of evil", Bush seems to have played several important cards into the hands of extremists, for they have another argument against the West, and against domestic moderate forces.

I understand that to ensure the stability of Afghanistan, one must discourage neighbours from competitive meddling. I do however disagree on this particular instance about the means chosen for that. They are likely to have been counterproductive.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

GKarsEye · Feb 20, 2002

Did anyone see Dick Cheney on Leno last night? He said that the State of the Union address went through almost 30 drafts.

The words were chosen carefully. Perhaps if so many Americans would stop being so squeamish about the necessity of armed conflict and military action, our president wouldn't need to constantly remind us if the need for it. He also needs to remind us that Afghanistan is just one small part of the problem. Everyone is so focused on it, and there's the danger of complacency now that the Taliban has been toppled. That is very far from the truth.

Iran and Iraq support terrorism. If that ain't evil, I don't know what is.

People are also conveniently forgetting the constant statements from Bush and his administration that it's not a war against Islam or the common people and that sort of thing. If you want to rip at what he says, then look at all of it. I see him saying this stuff all the time. Frankly, it's annoying. Can't people understand that he's referring to the governments, not the average man-on-the-street?

I suppose it's also alright for people to call the US the Great Satan and such. People say, "well, I understand why they would say that."

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 20, 2002

Just a few points about the current Bush dministration:
There were anti-Bush demonstration in Japan, due to his "axis of evil" remark.
Iran, to the best of my memory, wasn't proved to be involved in terrorists acts of any kind since the 79 revolution. There was that Salman Hushdie thing, but It was an exception.
Up to the state of the union speech, international diplomats remarked on how close the iranian and american representatives were working on the Afghan crisis (I believe that this scene was seen in Paris, between october and december, 2001, but I'm not sure).
I think that some of the ill-will towards America in the middle East has something to do with past support to people like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden (that so far hasn't been captured, despite the Afghan campaign being considered a success).
If anybody think that strong arms tactics will lead to a permanent solution of the terrorist problem, look at Israel. They are involvedd in this for five decades now, and these days a week doens't go by that we don't hear about some new deaths in that corner of the World. THe only time I remember that seemed to have a chance in solving this problem was duringthe Rabin-Arafat talks, backed by the Clinton Administration. Then along came Nataniahu with his swaggering and tough talk... much like somebody I could name.
Cheers... and peace

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never surrender, never give up
God, I need a better tag line

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
The "Arab world" can suck my big fat American ass. How dare they bitch about events that took place 700 years ago while breeding terrorists that threaten us now? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Racism is certainly not going to gather any sympathies.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
We need a little perspective here, folks. It's shocking to me that people can get so worked up over a word here and there, and ignore the threat of violence and destruction perpetrated by these governments and fanatics.

What do you all think we should do, sit them all down over a nice cup of coffee and ask them politely to please stop training suicidal maniacs to blow us up?

How many more buildings need to collapse before people understand the global threat of these people?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is shocking, GKE, is how you and the US government are willing to distort opposition to certain MEANS as opposition to doing something about it. And you should seriously reevaluate who has a better perspective on this question. Many European governments have DECADES of experience dealing with terrorism. And whether we look at Spain or at Northern Ireland, they are increasingly successful in coming to grips with it. NOT through retaliation, but through international cooperation, and through moderation.

The situation in Korea already was MUCH better than it currently is, and it was not the least Bush's rethorics already before 9/11 that led to the deterioration, and will most likely lead to the man who brought the opening of the North about and was awarded the Nobel peace prize for that losing his presidency. What Bush is currently doing is not just threatening North Korea, a country that had more important things to do of late than bombing japanese airliners as they did decades ago, no, he is also interfering in South Korean politics and destabilizing a constructionist president because he doesn't like his approach.

Kim Dae Young brought about the reunion of families that hadn't seen each other since the end of the Korean war. Those who visited the South are highly unlikely to believe Northern propaganda of how the south enslaves and exploits the working class. It is with openness and exchange of ideas that you can _convince_ people. You might force them to something with threats, but you won't get them to change their minds.

I recommend reading "Tears of my Soul" by Hyun Hee Kim, a North Korean agent involved in the bombing of an airliner, who was caught, yet not sentenced to death. Seeing what the South REALLY was like was a huge eye-opener for her, and no indoctrination could prevent that.
What do you think led thousands of Eastern Germans to 'vacation' in Hungary, when that country opened its border to Austria? Could it be that regularly watching western german TV made them somewhat less than receptive for indoctrination on oh how bad people in western Germany have it?

Take a look at the Israel/Palestine and think about how successful creating martyrs is in containing terrorism.

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

GKarsEye · Feb 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Racism is certainly not going to gather any sympathies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neither is insulting people on message boards. Nothing I said is racist.

Re: North Korea- I didn't even say anything about it. I will now: Bush is using it to push his absurd missile defense shield thing. Like any politician, he tacks on non-related agendas to other policies. It's this sort of practice that prevents a lot of beneficial legislation from passing.

I'm certainly no defender of Bush. I didn't vote for him. But it's important not to automatically attack the man for every little thing he says. Some of it is very valid.

Discussion and cooperation are fine if it is plausible. It is not plausible with brainwashed terrorists.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Neither is insulting people on message boards. Nothing I said is racist. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about "The "Arab world" can suck my big fat American ass." ?
It is certainly not referring to individuals.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I'm certainly no defender of Bush. I didn't vote for him. But it's important not to automatically attack the man for every little thing he says. Some of it is very valid.

Discussion and cooperation are fine if it is plausible. It is not plausible with brainwashed terrorists.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So an agent of North Korea, conditioned to hate the south so much that she kills almost 200 people is not brainwashed in your mind?

Here's a hint: Terrorist need recruits. Because they lose people in suicide attacks, in retaliations, and in arrests. If they don't get any recruits, they'll disappear eventually.
Who do you think becomes a suicide terrorist? Someone who looks forward to having a family, many kids and retire in a nice villa with view on the persian gulf? Or someone who thinks life has nothing to offer to him? Who do you think is more likely to believe that Americans are evil? Someone who has seen the US in exchange programs, listens to US music on the radio, encounters US citizens on the street, or someone who gets a couple of tons of explosives into his home town for reasons he has no idea about, courtesy of the US Air Force?

Discussion and cooperation prevent the terrorists from replenishing their ranks. Creating martyrs does precisely the opposite.

The same people who went to the street in Iran to protest against the extremists now are going on the street to protest against US threats. Ever thought about whether it might be more sensible to support the elected government in its struggle with the Mullahs?

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 20, 2002

To further clarify the excellent points Irmo has made: you can find little to no common traits between the countries of Iraq, Iran and North Korea. There is most certainly no "axis".

1. Iraq

Has fought a bloody war with Iran, oppressed Kurdi and Shiite minorities, annexed Kuwait and reached "achievements" in developing weapons of mass destruction. Ruled by a secular dictatorship quite capable of enduring economic measures, and unlikely to cooperate.

Most likely means to help them: pressuring the government, including but not limited to pressure from neighbours. Military action may be needed to topple the regime.

2. Iran

Originally an extremist Islamic state ruled by clergy. At odds with Iraq due to religious issues (Sunnites versus Shiites) and past wars. Has annexed no terrritories, but supported their proxies in Afghani wars (these proxies did not include Taliban).

While Iran has practised and still practises oppressive internal policies, it supported terrorism only during the first decade of the current system (it is unsure whether some forces within Iran still continue). During the past five years, it has shown signs of calming. In fact, secular influence has been increasing and religious dogmas cracking.

Recommended means: politely but firmly support moderate internal forces. Discourage from meddling in Afghani matters, demand that extremists who have seeped in be pursued and delivered to justice. Given time and well-chosen support, Iran may become a peaceful and tolerant country on its own. One should however try to limit access to nuclear technology... for times may change and extremists regain power. Hopefully not.

3. North Korea

An economically failing communist regime, staying together mainly by force of will (read: blinding amounts of propaganda). Will need dismantling sooner or later, in a peaceful way. Attempts at developing advanced weaponry should be discouraged and blocked, but weapons are not essential. People are essential.

Improvement of relations with South Korea is essential, to allow people more access to objective information. Supporting internal opposition is essential. Calling names is irrelevant and not very productive.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 20, 2002).]

*Sigh* · Feb 20, 2002

*sits and thinks*

i would say something, but it seem utterly useless to say anything to people with open eyes and closed minds.

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"I don't want anyone's pity. I don't need anybody's pity. All I know is that I am tired of being controlled. Controlled by others, by fear, by my past, by what everybody else expects of me and it's enough." -Garibaldi-

GKarsEye · Feb 20, 2002

Irmo, you apparently mistake me for some sort of militant hawk war-monger. I am not.
Shall I assume you're a bleeding-heart pussy who can't stomach a little military action? (No, I'm not doint that, just making a point)

If a government helps or assists us in seeking out terrorists, that's great. If they do not, what are we to do? What if we have good reason to believe that a terrorist nest is in, say, Iran, and Iran refuses to do anything about it or to let us do anything about it. Do we just say, "thanks for your time, sorry to bother you" and ignore it?

Re: the North Korean militant
Yes, you can reform one person. Can you reform thousands? What if those thousands aren't just taught political hatred, like North Koreans (or Soviets, or Viet Cong, or African militants, etc), but religiously programmed as well? This is a much more potent form of brainwashing. More importantly, can you reform all of these thousands of religious, dangerous fanatics before they strike again, especially when they are planning attacks at this very minute?

I never said we should destroy all of Iran, so your building analogy isn't fair.

You are talking about the long term. I am talking about the short term. Two problems, two solution, hand-in-hand. Neither necessarily excludes the other.

I just think people are making too much of a big deal over a couple of statements, especially since people forget all the other stuff Bush said. I could just as easily take pieces of speeches that could paint him as a Mother Teresa.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

*Sigh* · Feb 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Irmo, you apparently mistake me for some sort of militant hawk war-monger. I am not.
Shall I assume you're a bleeding-heart pussy who can't stomach a little military action? (No, I'm not doint that, just making a point) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i greatly hope that was not said to me.

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"I don't want anyone's pity. I don't need anybody's pity. All I know is that I am tired of being controlled. Controlled by others, by fear, by my past, by what everybody else expects of me and it's enough." -Garibaldi-

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:

If a government helps or assists us in seeking out terrorists, that's great. If they do not, what are we to do? What if we have good reason to believe that a terrorist nest is in, say, Iran, and Iran refuses to do anything about it or to let us do anything about it. Do we just say, "thanks for your time, sorry to bother you" and ignore it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are means to pressure other countries. Scoffing at their sovereignty is not one that will disprove anti-american propaganda. What you apparently fail to see is that it is you who is working into the hands of the terrorists by being everything they depict you as.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Re: the North Korean militant
Yes, you can reform one person. Can you reform thousands? What if those thousands aren't just taught political hatred, like North Koreans (or Soviets, or Viet Cong, or African militants, etc), but religiously programmed as well? This is a much more potent form of brainwashing. More importantly, can you reform all of these thousands of religious, dangerous fanatics before they strike again, especially when they are planning attacks at this very minute?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it is not a more potent form of brainwashing, since it is very questionable whether such a thing as brainwashing exists at all . What does exist is people acting out of misinformation and desperation. Both are issues that can be addressed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I never said we should destroy all of Iran, so your building analogy isn't fair.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it is. Because the government of Iran would rather today than tomorrow get rid of the fanatics. But they are in no position to do so without throwing the country in a civil war they have only marginal chances of winning. More likely, they will all be executed before they can take any meaningful actions, and the rest will be slaughter of dissidents on the streets. The iranian president won his reelection BY A LANDSLIDE, meaning there is a lot of support in the public for reforms. Punishing them for the actions of the Mullahs will drive people away from the reformist movement and straight into the arms of the fanatics.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
You are talking about the long term. I am talking about the short term. Two problems, two solution, hand-in-hand. Neither necessarily excludes the other.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Korea was already much further down the road towards reconciliation. The threats have brought it away from that goal. Violence is not a solution, it merely creates demand for revenge. If anything, the example of Israel should show that. Likewise the example of WWI. (Not just the beginning, as was mentioned, but also the time afterwards. If one side feels utterly humiliated, it is much more likely to seek ways for payback than one who doesn't really feel like a loser.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I just think people are making too much of a big deal over a couple of statements, especially since people forget all the other stuff Bush said. I could just as easily take pieces of speeches that could paint him as a Mother Teresa.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but diplomacy is diplomacy, and if Bush is incapable of acting in a diplomatic way, then he should maybe leave such issues to Powell. Of course, Powell disagrees with Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld on quite a few issues, which is why they only send him out to mop up after they spilled the milk.

Fact is that Bush is currently straining NATO to the breaking point, and while the US might not need other NATO troops, doing without NATO facilities will be quite a different issue.

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by *Sigh*:
i greatly hope that was not said to me.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously not, since GKE addressed me personally

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

*Sigh* · Feb 20, 2002

*re-reads above post*

i thought that said imo. sorry. i feel stupid.

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"I don't want anyone's pity. I don't need anybody's pity. All I know is that I am tired of being controlled. Controlled by others, by fear, by my past, by what everybody else expects of me and it's enough." -Garibaldi-

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